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Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:01 pm

WVPardView user's profile






Joined: 06 Oct 2016
Posts: 48


Location: The Mountain State





14-4 against another good team.  I couldn't find a way to watch this one and cannot find enough good coverage of the team on-line.  

So, I have to lean on you guys to answer - What is going on with this group?  Injuries? Over-expectation?  Under-performance?  My biggest fear - all of the above plus some other things?

The latter part of last season gave me some hope that the program was turning the corner toward competitiveness. There were some respectable losses against good teams.  This year the goals against doesn't seem terrible, but scoring is anemic, and I am using a kind term.

I thought earlier, "If we could just get one against one of the big names in the league..."  Now, I am forced to think, "If we could just get one..."

Keeping the faith in Almost Heaven...
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Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:11 am

seenalotView user's profile






Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 1424







Right now its hard to say its anything other than all of the above - as we all shared the optimistic view going into the year.

Not someone with insights about what goes on in locker room or team room - just a lax fan, Lax Dad and long time observer of the game.   But at this juncture its just flat out hard to pull out of this tail spin.  The kids are sick of it, the coaches apparently don't know what to do about it - and the net of that often becomes a team divided and broken.   No one believes its going to change, so its hard to make the magic it takes to win.  We are back into another cycle of how to fix - more or less same place we were at the end of the Terry M run.  

As someone alluded in a different thread an investment in better paying coaching positions - which translates into better coaches from successful D1 programs who know how to win (not the same ones making more $) is one thing we must do.  Our coaches never experienced what we want them to make happen on the field - NONE of them.   It would be the same as hiring HS math professors to teach Differential Equations, paying them chump change to do it and expecting Rhodes Scholars.  Will some of them move on - yes - but reloading them with similarly qualified coaches on the rise is doable.  

As I have said in the past Bruce is above his head in role of athletic DIRECTOR - he is an Administrator.  If the study does not come to at least THAT conclusion, and then recommends funding coaches pay accordingly then it was an exercise in mental masturbation.   And with Bruce on the study committee I just don't see that happening......  

Really depressing but this is a problem of leadership as much as it is anything.

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Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:18 am

LafalumView user's profile






Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 3889







seenalot wrote:
Right now its hard to say its anything other than all of the above - as we all shared the optimistic view going into the year.

Not someone with insights about what goes on in locker room or team room - just a lax fan, Lax Dad and long time observer of the game. But at this juncture its just flat out hard to pull out of this tail spin. The kids are sick of it, the coaches apparently don't know what to do about it - and the net of that often becomes a team divided and broken. No one believes its going to change, so its hard to make the magic it takes to win. We are back into another cycle of how to fix - more or less same place we were at the end of the Terry M run.

As someone alluded in a different thread an investment in better paying coaching positions - which translates into better coaches from successful D1 programs who know how to win (not the same ones making more $) is one thing we must do. Our coaches never experienced what we want them to make happen on the field - NONE of them. It would be the same as hiring HS math professors to teach Differential Equations, paying them chump change to do it and expecting Rhodes Scholars. Will some of them move on - yes - but reloading them with similarly qualified coaches on the rise is doable.

As I have said in the past Bruce is above his head in role of athletic DIRECTOR - he is an Administrator. If the study does not come to at least THAT conclusion, and then recommends funding coaches pay accordingly then it was an exercise in mental masturbation. And with Bruce on the study committee I just don't see that happening......

Really depressing but this is a problem of leadership as much as it is anything.


Sadly agree, but I will wait to see the study results and then react. One month to go!!

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Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:42 pm

The MaroonView user's profile






Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 1860


Location: Bethlehem, PA





Does anyone know what the schollie situation is for us in Men's Lax?

That would kind of help shape the discussion.

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Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:54 am

AndyView user's profile






Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 6053







The Maroon wrote:
Does anyone know what the schollie situation is for us in Men's Lax?

That would kind of help shape the discussion.


Thank you. We've been asking that for years. A couple of scholarships leaves it woefully short. Remember Weise's assurances to the anti-athletics group that "no more funds would be expended under the scholarship sysem."  So with FB at 60 and the corresponding numbers to women's sports, kind of leaves mens lax out in the cold, I would think.  A strong level of donor support as Lafalum has indicated, would generate what - 1 scholarship per year?  12 are allowed, several PL teams are said to be fully funded.

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Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:33 am

KpardView user's profile






Joined: 07 Nov 2011
Posts: 1262


Location: Bethlehem





Andy wrote:
The Maroon wrote:
Does anyone know what the schollie situation is for us in Men's Lax?

That would kind of help shape the discussion.


Thank you. We've been asking that for years. A couple of scholarships leaves it woefully short. Remember Weise's assurances to the anti-athletics group that "no more funds would be expended under the scholarship sysem." So with FB at 60 and the corresponding numbers to women's sports, kind of leaves mens lax out in the cold, I would think. A strong level of donor support as Lafalum has indicated, would generate what - 1 scholarship per year? 12 are allowed, several PL teams are said to be fully funded.


1 vs 12 and we need a "study" to explain why we aren't competitive!?
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Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:32 pm

The MaroonView user's profile






Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 1860


Location: Bethlehem, PA





Somewhere floating around is Eve Atkinson's lawsuit which mentions that men's Lax was one of four sports she recommended chopping in order for us to have the funds to remain competitive in the remaining sports.

Eve never gets much love in Leopard history - but it seemed she had a better grip on things than we gave her credit for. I'm not advocating cutting this program - not at ALL! It just seems obvious that this team has never been given the backing to do it right.

My very limited understanding is in line with Andy's. We're nowhere near fully-funded.

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Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:36 pm

BPardView user's profile






Joined: 23 Sep 2014
Posts: 208







This appears to be a case of you get what you pay for.

I haven't pulled '15 data yet; however, according to Equity in Athletics:

Total Lacrosse Men's Team Expenses
Code:
 

  2014 2013 2012
Boston U $971,360 $715,785 N/A
Bucknell $745,614 $631,749 $558,553
Colgate $1,020,487 $892,200 $989,537
Holy Cross $497,236 $369,626 $358,419
Georgetown $1,268,734 $1,143,395 $1,257,623
Lafayette $594,476 $470,388 $459,654
Lehigh $1,334,019 $1,349,640 $1,317,054
Loyola $1,493,455 $1,404,000 $1,475,473


Total Lacrosse Men's Team Operating Expenses
Code:
 
  2014 2013 2012
Boston U $146,273 $158,802 N/A
Bucknell $233,952 $192,549 $177,589
Colgate $247,809 $158,517 $183,302
Holy Cross $149,983 $125,861 $61,318
Georgetown $169,252 $132,853 $209,055
Lafayette $118,405 $116,554 $98,156
Lehigh $170,748 $219,605 $261,571
Loyola $221,478 $202,169 $247,905


btw, we give less aid across all sports than the rest of the league except for American and Loyola. BU gives 2x the athletic aid that we do. Bucknell, Colgate, Fordham, and Lehigh all give 40+% more aid than we do.

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Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:59 pm

LafalumView user's profile






Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 3889







BPard wrote:
This appears to be a case of you get what you pay for.

I haven't pulled '15 data yet; however, according to Equity in Athletics:

Total Lacrosse Men's Team Expenses
Code:
 

  2014 2013 2012
Boston U $971,360 $715,785 N/A
Bucknell $745,614 $631,749 $558,553
Colgate $1,020,487 $892,200 $989,537
Holy Cross $497,236 $369,626 $358,419
Georgetown $1,268,734 $1,143,395 $1,257,623
Lafayette $594,476 $470,388 $459,654
Lehigh $1,334,019 $1,349,640 $1,317,054
Loyola $1,493,455 $1,404,000 $1,475,473


Total Lacrosse Men's Team Operating Expenses
Code:
 
  2014 2013 2012
Boston U $146,273 $158,802 N/A
Bucknell $233,952 $192,549 $177,589
Colgate $247,809 $158,517 $183,302
Holy Cross $149,983 $125,861 $61,318
Georgetown $169,252 $132,853 $209,055
Lafayette $118,405 $116,554 $98,156
Lehigh $170,748 $219,605 $261,571
Loyola $221,478 $202,169 $247,905


btw, we give less aid across all sports than the rest of the league except for American and Loyola. BU gives 2x the athletic aid that we do. Bucknell, Colgate, Fordham, and Lehigh all give 40+% more aid than we do.


Ok here's an interesting question. I hear from the Men's lacrosse folk that they are raising between 125 and 200 k every year. ( I have not confirmed that). If that is the case , how do you reconcile the 118k operating expenses and the money they raise. Is the fund raising going 100 pct to operating expenses and school is 0 is it going to aid...or what??

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Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:01 pm

LafalumView user's profile






Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 3889







BPard wrote:
This appears to be a case of you get what you pay for.

I haven't pulled '15 data yet; however, according to Equity in Athletics:

Total Lacrosse Men's Team Expenses
Code:
 

  2014 2013 2012
Boston U $971,360 $715,785 N/A
Bucknell $745,614 $631,749 $558,553
Colgate $1,020,487 $892,200 $989,537
Holy Cross $497,236 $369,626 $358,419
Georgetown $1,268,734 $1,143,395 $1,257,623
Lafayette $594,476 $470,388 $459,654
Lehigh $1,334,019 $1,349,640 $1,317,054
Loyola $1,493,455 $1,404,000 $1,475,473


Total Lacrosse Men's Team Operating Expenses
Code:
 
  2014 2013 2012
Boston U $146,273 $158,802 N/A
Bucknell $233,952 $192,549 $177,589
Colgate $247,809 $158,517 $183,302
Holy Cross $149,983 $125,861 $61,318
Georgetown $169,252 $132,853 $209,055
Lafayette $118,405 $116,554 $98,156
Lehigh $170,748 $219,605 $261,571
Loyola $221,478 $202,169 $247,905


btw, we give less aid across all sports than the rest of the league except for American and Loyola. BU gives 2x the athletic aid that we do. Bucknell, Colgate, Fordham, and Lehigh all give 40+% more aid than we do.


And BU aid is without an 85 man football team!

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Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:36 pm

BPardView user's profile






Joined: 23 Sep 2014
Posts: 208







Lafalum wrote:

Ok here's an interesting question. I hear from the Men's lacrosse folk that they are raising between 125 and 200 k every year. ( I have not confirmed that). If that is the case , how do you reconcile the 118k operating expenses and the money they raise. Is the fund raising going 100 pct to operating expenses and school is 0 is it going to aid...or what??
a quick pull of 2015 data for lax only does show a bump in spending up to $730k. In the basement with Bucknell and Holy Cross. Next closest is Colgate who spends 32% more. The 4 other PL institutions spend roughly 2x what we do on men's lacrosse.

In 2015, operating expenses were $168k for men and $163k for women.

Since money is fungible....You know the answer to your question.

How do other schools fund their programs? Do they have more generous donors? Do they allocate a greater endowment draw to athletics? Or do they allocate a portion of tuition, which spreads the fixed cost of athletics over a larger student body, growing their athletics budgets?

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Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:07 pm

RichHView user's profile






Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 1197







At LU , it is a combination of all 3. Funding is a matter of commitment and money. Bucknell has been very successful with very little schollie aid. Not sure that can continue. Sterrett decided to emphasize MLax and succeeded in getting increased school funding and donations. I recall that his rationale was that he expected Lax to grow substantially and he wanted Lehigh to ride that wave. Not long thereafter PL also pushed to get PL firmly in the national picture. Hence adding Loyola and requiring BU to start lax..

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Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:49 pm

The MaroonView user's profile






Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 1860


Location: Bethlehem, PA





RichH wrote:
Sterrett decided to emphasize MLax and succeeded in getting increased school funding and donations. I recall that his rationale was that he expected Lax to grow substantially and he wanted Lehigh to ride that wave. Not long thereafter PL also pushed to get PL firmly in the national picture. Hence adding Loyola and requiring BU to start lax..


Wow...the ability to look at trend data and proactively prepare - something people in leadership roles do every day.

And Kudos to our friends in Beantown for not adding Men's Lax as an accommodation as we would have done - but in actually spending the money to do it right.

If this study is TRULY about increasing our competitiveness in the Patriot League - then the conclusions drawn surrounding this program will be the bellweather as to whether or not it was a serious exercise.

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Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:55 pm

LafalumView user's profile






Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 3889







The Maroon wrote:
RichH wrote:
Sterrett decided to emphasize MLax and succeeded in getting increased school funding and donations. I recall that his rationale was that he expected Lax to grow substantially and he wanted Lehigh to ride that wave. Not long thereafter PL also pushed to get PL firmly in the national picture. Hence adding Loyola and requiring BU to start lax..


Wow...the ability to look at trend data and proactively prepare - something people in leadership roles do every day.

And Kudos to our friends in Beantown for not adding Men's Lax as an accommodation as we would have done - but in actually spending the money to do it right.

If this study is TRULY about increasing our competitiveness in the Patriot League - then the conclusions drawn surrounding this program will be the bellweather as to whether or not it was a serious exercise.


There are two elements in leadership, the ability to recognize trends and being persuasive enough to implement a strategy. There may be two failures here. I continue to be interested in the study and to see if it is credible.

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Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:47 pm

RichHView user's profile






Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 1197







I've read the numerous posts on Pard AD over the last few years.  Agree that he appears to be a placeholder administrator. Whether he could be innovative and more forceful in dealing with unsuccessful coaches is not really the question. Seems to me under LC's rather unusual setup, he actually has no power to do much of anything beyond photo ops and shuffling paper. The blame lays above him.  Not fair to compare him to Dean Sterrett who actually controls his Athletic Dept. Hopefully the upcoming report will create a better system at LC.

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Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:45 am

seenalotView user's profile






Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 1424







Agree Rich - we are all holding out hope for that.  

Not really interested in establishing or dwelling on the blame - just want to see it identified as an issue and fixed.  We need an AD with the authority to fully run their show, who reports to the President - I think most active writers here would agree on that point as being a cornerstone towards fixing things.  Getting academia to understand that athletics is not the exact same model is not easy, but necessary.

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Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:27 pm

KpardView user's profile






Joined: 07 Nov 2011
Posts: 1262


Location: Bethlehem





seenalot wrote:
Agree Rich - we are all holding out hope for that.

Not really interested in establishing or dwelling on the blame - just want to see it identified as an issue and fixed. We need an AD with the authority to fully run their show, who reports to the President - I think most active writers here would agree on that point as being a cornerstone towards fixing things. Getting academia to understand that athletics is not the exact same model is not easy, but necessary.


Yes! It is not Phys Ed or an extracurricular activity. It is supposed to be D1 athletics.
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Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:10 pm

RichHView user's profile






Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 1197







Kpard wrote:
seenalot wrote:
Agree Rich - we are all holding out hope for that.

Not really interested in establishing or dwelling on the blame - just want to see it identified as an issue and fixed. We need an AD with the authority to fully run their show, who reports to the President - I think most active writers here would agree on that point as being a cornerstone towards fixing things. Getting academia to understand that athletics is not the exact same model is not easy, but necessary.


Yes! It is not Phys Ed or an extracurricular activity. It is supposed to be D1 athletics.


YUP.

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