Archive for Lafayette Sports Fan Forum This forum is not affiliated in any way with Lafayette College, Lafayette College Athletics, The Maroon Club or any other official organization. Please be respectful of other posters as well as the athletes, coaches and administrators.
 


       Lafayette Sports Fan Forum Forum Index -> Men's Basketball
bethlehempard

A typical season is 13-17

Since the start of the 2000-01 season Lafayette is 185-235. That is, 13.2 wins per year and 16.8 losses. So 15-15 is an above-average season.
Since the start of the 2010-11 season (all numbers exclude this year) we are 56-72 or 14-18 annually.
This year is almost bound to exceed the average and mean for wins. It's been that kind of 21st century of LC hoops.
Kpard

I truly thought that this would be a 20 win season. When we started out 8-3 non conference and a housing of the Black Knights I figured it was a done deal.
OK, so maybe there should be no panic, yet? We rarely win in Lewisburg and the Navy game was a case of over confidence.
I do have that sinking feeling that it is starting to look like the same old, same old........isn't it?
bethlehempard

It's a truism that Lafayette teams improve as the season goes on.
The records don't bear that out.
Since 2000-2001:
First halves of season: 91-116.
Second halves: 92-119. Not much difference.
A few caveats: early OOC strength of schedule varies tremendously. It was weak this year but stronger in others.
I couldn't find results for a couple games but that wouldn't change the numbers much. When there were odd numbers of games I included the middle game (16 of 31 for example) in the second half.
I excluded an AAU victory in 2000-2001. The final game is of course always a loss.

As for this year only the Navy loss was disappointing and that is going to happen. We lost to them after beating Notre Dame.
I will never count on a win at Bucknell.

There is hope but not based on late improvement.
pardfan

Touching the "third rail" here....I find Fran's chronic inability to successfully recruit African-American players shocking and alarming.
Andy

There's no reason we couldn't have beaten a mediocre BU team last night, even on their home court. That wasnt McNaughton or Muscala out there. Our srs got out played by a group of freshmen who wamted it more.
pardfan

Seth is playing well enough to belong in the lineup; but, he doesn't seem like the Seth of two yrs ago.  Too content to take the three.  Has lost a step when he decides to drive.  Winning the league requires him to play at his absolute best.  (I'm not saying the effort isn't there.)
bethlehempard

Before scholarships we could play the underdog "last amateurs" role.
Not now. We haven't had a 20-win season or post-season appearance in this century. We lose to Lehigh regularly and got swept by Colgate.
It's just plain tiresome.

We get more fans just from town than Colgate draws to a game. We have fans driving 50, 80 miles sometimes. The support is there. It's frustrating as hell.
Lafalum

bethlehempard wrote:
Before scholarships we could play the underdog "last amateurs" role.
Not now. We haven't had a 20-win season or post-season appearance in this century. We lose to Lehigh regularly and got swept by Colgate.
It's just plain tiresome.

We get more fans just from town than Colgate draws to a game. We have fans driving 50, 80 miles sometimes. The support is there. It's frustrating as hell.


Amen
bethlehempard

There's always hope!

And for those who denounce reality as negativity,
A word or two... From the Inkspots...

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rvwfLe6sLis

Or

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HtzPobMyIs8







O
Franks Tanks

bethlehempard wrote:
Before scholarships we could play the underdog "last amateurs" role.
Not now. We haven't had a 20-win season or post-season appearance in this century. We lose to Lehigh regularly and got swept by Colgate.
It's just plain tiresome.

We get more fans just from town than Colgate draws to a game. We have fans driving 50, 80 miles sometimes. The support is there. It's frustrating as hell.


I suppose it could be worse.  We could have Milan Brown from Holy Cross as our coach.  Whenever I feel like a crazy weirdo loser for actually caring, I take a visit to cross sports and realize I am somewhat normal.  They have a 9 page thread about their game against Colgate which is pretty much insane.  According to one poster they will be joining the Big East shortly.
bethlehempard

Join the Big East?

"I gotta party with that guy!"

Bill Murray, "Stripes."
bison137

Franks Tanks wrote:
 According to one poster they will be joining the Big East shortly.



Probably join the SEC for football at the same time.   Same probability.
ed65

I think the problem for the men's team is the Pre-PL schedule (outside of Kansas, West Va and the Hall) was really weak.  We played weak NEC Teams.  We would be much better off playing Iona, Fordham, Marist, Siena, Fairfield, Stony Brook, etc.  The Ivies are ok but Yale showed how weak we are in the "Bigs" Department.  

While I don't disagree with the previous comment on the lack of African American players, keep in mind that most of the teams we play have several AA ballplayers who aren't any good!

Also, clearly the loss of Linder at point guard has really hurt the team. He clearly is better than I thought.
bison137

ed65 wrote:
I think the problem for the men's team is the Pre-PL schedule (outside of Kansas, West Va and the Hall) was really weak.  We played weak NEC Teams.  We would be much better off playing Iona, Fordham, Marist, Siena, Fairfield, Stony Brook, etc.  The Ivies are ok but Yale showed how weak we are in the "Bigs" Department.  

While I don't disagree with the previous comment on the lack of African American players, keep in mind that most of the teams we play have several AA ballplayers who aren't any good!

Also, clearly the loss of Linder at point guard has really hurt the team. He clearly is better than I thought.



1.  The LC ooc schedule was actually fairly good, and the majority of the teams that LC played are collectively better than the six teams you suggest they should have played.  For example, from Pomeroy, here are the rankings for your six and the best six midmajors actually on the schedule:

67 Iona
98 Yale (Played)
99 Stony Brook
170 Princeton (Played)
220 Sacred Heart (Played)
222 NJIT  (Played)
237 Robert Morris (Played)

238 Siena
240 Fordham
259 Penn (Played)
298 Fairfield
327 Marist

True, there were a couple of cupcakes at the bottom (e.g. FDU and Susq) but everyone in the league had a couple.  One other thing is that no-one knows in advance how good a team will be.   Both Princeton and Robert Morris were expected to be significantly better than they have been.   In total, I don't think the schedule is an issue.


2.  Lindner is certainly a key player. He definitely was missed in the Navy game, but that's the only game where he was out.  Against Bucknell he played virtually the entire game - more than any other player on either team - and had 9 assists.


3.  True, not every AA player turns out to be a good player.   However fwiw almost every team in the league has multiple players of color good enough to be in their rotation.   By team:  Army (2), Navy (4+). Bucknell (3), Boston (5), Loyola (6+), American (1), Holy Cross (6), Lehigh (6), Colgate (1+).   (Army's total includes Max Lenox, who was a rotation player before being injured.)

The number per year fluctuates a lot since teams only have a few scholarships, but I do know HC has 4 commitments for next year who fall into that category.  American has 3, Bucknell 1, Lehigh 1.

FWIW, looking at last year's All-PL teams, 7 of the 15 players were AA.   Also 3 of the 6 on the All-rookie team fell into that category.
ed65

Good research by Bison.  But the point I am trying to make is that LC needs to have a much stronger OOC Schedule to prepare for League play.  LC's OOC schedule was misleading, and it came back to bite the boys when they played Navy and the Bison.  So I propose they should play teams like St. Johns, Richmond, William and Mary, JMU and teams from those conferences rather than the cupcakes in the NEC.  I might add Vermont, New Hampshire and teams like that.  Or how about a trip to the West Coast and teams like Gonzaga and St Marys rather than Kansas (ridiculous to play them) or West Virginia (even more ridiculous).  Fran's apparent inability to recruit AA Players is a long time gripe from this LC Fan.

Your turn, Bison.
Franks Tanks

I know I've said this many times so bear with me.  I understand we aren't getting highly athletic 6' 5" to 6' 9" guys who can shoot, dribble and pass to come to Lafayette.  Those kids end up in the P5, or conferences like the A-10 at minimum.  However, I don't understand why, with the benefit of scholarships, we can't get kids like Tyson Whitfield, Ted Cole or Winston Davis.  These guys brought toughness, attitude and athletic ability (well maybe not Ted Cole  Very Happy ) and were all "non-scholarship" guys.  Stephan Cosci was luck and I know he was a unicorn for this program, but I believe we are capable of getting one guy per year with decent size, good athletic ability and good ball skills that can bring a bit of attitude and toughness to the team.  We don't have anyone, with the possible exception of Trist, who will elbow a guy in the gut and slam a ball is someone's face.  I agree with Fran that basketball SHOULD be a game of skill and motion and beauty, but the fact is that the college game is full of athletic guys who can't shoot all that well so they play to their strengths.  Just a few "tough guys", on the inside of the perimeter would ne nice and greatly benefit the team IMO.
Franks Tanks

bethlehempard wrote:
It's a truism that Lafayette teams improve as the season goes on.
The records don't bear that out.
Since 2000-2001:
First halves of season: 91-116.
Second halves: 92-119. Not much difference.
A few caveats: early OOC strength of schedule varies tremendously. It was weak this year but stronger in others.
I couldn't find results for a couple games but that wouldn't change the numbers much. When there were odd numbers of games I included the middle game (16 of 31 for example) in the second half.
I excluded an AAU victory in 2000-2001. The final game is of course always a loss.

As for this year only the Navy loss was disappointing and that is going to happen. We lost to them after beating Notre Dame.
I will never count on a win at Bucknell.

There is hope but not based on late improvement.


Good point, and thanks for the research.  I think the idea that Fran's teams get stronger as the year goes on idea is sort of backed by a few unexpected deep runs in the PL tournament of late by teams with overall losing records.  The raw numbers don't necessarily back up the assumption, but perhaps we can say that at the very least Fran's team usually bring it at tournament time, although we just don't have the talent to bring home he title.
bison137

ed65 wrote:
Good research by Bison.  But the point I am trying to make is that LC needs to have a much stronger OOC Schedule to prepare for League play.  LC's OOC schedule was misleading, and it came back to bite the boys when they played Navy and the Bison.  So I propose they should play teams like St. Johns, Richmond, William and Mary, JMU and teams from those conferences rather than the cupcakes in the NEC.  I might add Vermont, New Hampshire and teams like that.  Or how about a trip to the West Coast and teams like Gonzaga and St Marys rather than Kansas (ridiculous to play them) or West Virginia (even more ridiculous).  Fran's apparent inability to recruit AA Players is a long time gripe from this LC Fan.

Your turn, Bison.




I think I already made my points - but it should be noted that the majority of the teams that LC played prior to PL play are stronger than Bucknell and stronger than Navy - and stronger than much of the PL.    The average PL team ranks 229th, Navy is #293,  and Bucknell is #223.   So how can playing Yale (better than every PL team by a wide margin), Princeton, Sacred Heart, NJIT, Robert Morris, and Penn not prepare LC for PL play?   The average ranking of those six is 201.

As for your new list, St. John's is only a little worse than Kansas or West Virginia, so I don't know why it also wouldn't be "ridiculous".  Also JMU and New Hampshire are each ranked between 200 and 250 - so adding them would change nothing.  Vermont, W&M, or Richmond might be good additions, but it's not easy to simply decide to schedule a team.   They have to have an open date at the same time as you have an open date - and want to play you.  Also Richmond would likely not do a one-for-one with LC, and I assume there is some desire to have some home games.

As for playing Gonzaga, they are ranked ahead of Kansas and West Virginia at the moment.  So why switch to a game with a stronger team, if playing Kansas and West Virginia is absurd?   Also I'm sure you understand that the reason LC played those two was mostly about the monetary guarantee.    Kansas and West Virginia offer a much bigger guarantee than Gonzaga or St. Mary's would pay.   Also easier to get to.

One last comment.   The league that "Vermont, New Hampshire. and teams like that" is in is America East.   America East is significantly worse than the NEC.
pards123

We actually did play Gonzaga a couple years back. I don't see a difference between playing them or Maryland, Kansas, West Virginia, or Kentucky. All teams we have played in recent years.
adcs2

"We don't have anyone, with the possible exception of Trist, who will elbow a guy in the gut and slam a ball is someone's face."

What have you been watching for the last four years? When has DT ever done that. He is the definition of a finesse big. Hook shots, double clutch and fade away jump shots.
ed65

Bison: your really are annoyingly difficult to have a discussion with because you missed my original point which is that LC (and PL teams in general) need to play tougher schedules OOC.  Now I am going to refute everything you say by looking up all the teams mentioned winning records (not really, I have no interest in doing that!).  You seem to enjoy  simply shooting down suggestions without making any suggestions of your own with your usual tut tutting.  That is simply gamesmanship with you showing off your research skills based on THIS years rankings or records or whatever.  

y impression is that PL ADs make up the schedule based on short trips, a money game or two and trying to schedule games in areas where players live.

To repeat: what I am saying is that PL teams need to play tougher OOC Schedules, especially LC.  No more cupcakes bec. the OOC record means nothing if you don't win the league championship.

So Bison, instead of being annoying, why don't you make some suggestions on who the PL Schools should play instead of simply shooting down (with research only based on this year's results) someone else's ideas.  On a positive note (because you are so infuriating to have a discussion with), here are some facts.  LC (and Lehigh) used to play Rutgers every year (they were known as the Little Three - did you know that Bison?).  And they were in the Middle Atlantic Conference which had as members among others St Joes, Temple and LaSalle.  I would much rather see the PL playing those schools than the cupcakes of the NEC.

Your turn, Bison, and how about being positive for a change rather than being a stat maven.
bison137

ed65 wrote:
Bison: your really are annoyingly difficult to have a discussion with because you missed my original point which is that LC (and PL teams in general) need to play tougher schedules OOC.  Now I am going to refute everything you say by looking up all the teams mentioned winning records (not really, I have no interest in doing that!).  You seem to enjoy  simply shooting down suggestions without making any suggestions of your own with your usual tut tutting.



I have suggested, and actually used evidence, that the LC ooc schedule was a pretty good one and should have prepared them for league play.   I have refuted a lot (not everything you said) because your posts weren't based on any facts.   I can't help that.  

Despite your claim, the facts show that PL teams play tougher ooc schedules than ALL of the other midmajor leagues in the northeast.   Of the league's ten teams, seven of them (including LC) have occ schedules ranked in the top 138 (out of 351 D1 schools).   And an eighth (Loyola) also had a schedule that was above-average in difficulty.  Only Army and Navy had ooc schedules that were below-average.
ed65

Bison: your "facts" were (as usual) based only on the results from this year rather than overall (or historic) strengths of the programs.  You also limited your range of schools to the Northeast which is not necessary in this day of air travel.  Why the PL schools have to be limited to the Northeast is beyond me.  I think most players would like to have a more regionally diverse schedule - it is good for recruiting whereas playing Susquehanna, Fairleigh Dickinson, St Peters and the like does nothing for recruiting.

So Bison, how about some suggestions (I can't help continuing to ask you that) rather than your usual methodology of shooting down comments made by LC Fans.  What do you think should be the teams that PL Schools should schedule?  

And by the way, Bison, it is tiring to continue to read your know-it-all, tut tutting posts.  I have been involved in LC athletics since the 1960s so I have a much deeper background on the subject than you do.
bethlehempard

Without getting too number-fied if there is such a word I would like to see more A-10 teams and for the sake of tradition and name value I would take any Ivy over any NEC.
The A-10 could help with exposure and I would rather watch an Ivy team than Generic Small Region University.
seenalot

I stopped arguing with 137 months ago - its pointless.  

I have given into the fact that he is right and Bucknell's approach to all things is superior.....   Rolling Eyes
bison137

ed65 wrote:
Bison: your "facts" were (as usual) based only on the results from this year rather than overall (or historic) strengths of the programs.  You also limited your range of schools to the Northeast which is not necessary in this day of air travel.  Why the PL schools have to be limited to the Northeast is beyond me.  I think most players would like to have a more regionally diverse schedule - it is good for recruiting whereas playing Susquehanna, Fairleigh Dickinson, St Peters and the like does nothing for recruiting.

So Bison, how about some suggestions (I can't help continuing to ask you that) rather than your usual methodology of shooting down comments made by LC Fans.  What do you think should be the teams that PL Schools should schedule?  

And by the way, Bison, it is tiring to continue to read your know-it-all, tut tutting posts.  I have been involved in LC athletics since the 1960s so I have a much deeper background on the subject than you do.



1.  I often agree with LC fans.  Also I have been very supportive of this year's team on various threads.  

2.  I have already given my suggestion - which is to continue to play the same kind of schedule as this year.   The only change I might have made would be to have replaced FDU with a better midmajor.  I am OK with a D3 game as long as it is the game immediately following exam break.   In general, I think it was a schedule that should have prepared the team for the PL season.

3.  As for your statement questioning my "facts" and saying they are "(as usual) based only on the results from this year",  that is clearly inaccurate since I often use multiple years when I use stats.  Also if you think any of my facts are wrong, I'd welcome correction - based on more accurate facts.

4.  I have followed LC since the 1960's but not as closely as you.   But I guarantee I have followed the MAC, the ECC, and the Patriot League more closely than you over the years - and a number of the things we have talked about in the various threads have involved the entire league.   Even in this discussion, you made a comment about the schedules of the PL teams in general, saying that "LC (and PL teams in general) need to play tougher schedules OOC").   I disagreed, and continue to disagree, since most PL teams play good OOC schedules already.

5.  LC, like all PL teams and most midmajors, loses money on men's basketball.  Extensive air travel and extra hotel nights tend to add to the monetary loss - unless it is a guarantee game with a team like Kansas.  This is a reason why PL teams want to schedule games in the northeast.  Also missed classes are kept to a minimum and available study time is maximized when teams can return to campus the same night as a game is played.  

6.  I question that playing one game every couple of years in a faraway area is necessary to help recruiting in that area.  PL teams have been VERY good at landing players from outside of the northeast without playing games in those areas.  In general the league has a much more geographically-diverse group of recruits than the MAAC, NEC, or AE, among others    LC is one example, having scholarship players from Minnesota, Ohio, Australia (2), Colorado, California (2), Texas, and Missouri.   Also look at the rosters of Colgate, Bucknell, Lehigh, and American (and Army and Navy, of course) - which are all very diverse geographically, without those teams having played games in the areas where the players came from.

7.  If you don't like fact-based posts, we will have to agree to disagree.  I'm sorry I have offended you.
ed65

bison137 wrote:
ed65 wrote:
Bison: your "facts" were (as usual) based only on the results from this year rather than overall (or historic) strengths of the programs.  You also limited your range of schools to the Northeast which is not necessary in this day of air travel.  Why the PL schools have to be limited to the Northeast is beyond me.  I think most players would like to have a more regionally diverse schedule - it is good for recruiting whereas playing Susquehanna, Fairleigh Dickinson, St Peters and the like does nothing for recruiting.

So Bison, how about some suggestions (I can't help continuing to ask you that) rather than your usual methodology of shooting down comments made by LC Fans.  What do you think should be the teams that PL Schools should schedule?  

And by the way, Bison, it is tiring to continue to read your know-it-all, tut tutting posts.  I have been involved in LC athletics since the 1960s so I have a much deeper background on the subject than you do.



1.  I often agree with LC fans.  Also I have been very supportive of this year's team on various threads.  

2.  I have already given my suggestion - which is to continue to play the same kind of schedule as this year.   The only change I might have made would be to have replaced FDU with a better midmajor.  I am OK with a D3 game as long as it is the game immediately following exam break.   In general, I think it was a schedule that should have prepared the team for the PL season.

3.  As for your statement questioning my "facts" and saying they are "(as usual) based only on the results from this year",  that is clearly inaccurate since I often use multiple years when I use stats.  Also if you think any of my facts are wrong, I'd welcome correction - based on more accurate facts.

4.  I have followed LC since the 1960's but not as closely as you.   But I guarantee I have followed the MAC, the ECC, and the Patriot League more closely than you over the years - and a number of the things we have talked about in the various threads have involved the entire league.   Even in this discussion, you made a comment about the schedules of the PL teams in general, saying that "LC (and PL teams in general) need to play tougher schedules OOC").   I disagreed, and continue to disagree, since most PL teams play good OOC schedules already.

5.  LC, like all PL teams and most midmajors, loses money on men's basketball.  Extensive air travel and extra hotel nights tend to add to the monetary loss - unless it is a guarantee game with a team like Kansas.  This is a reason why PL teams want to schedule games in the northeast.  Also missed classes are kept to a minimum and available study time is maximized when teams can return to campus the same night as a game is played.  

6.  I question that playing one game every couple of years in a faraway area is necessary to help recruiting in that area.  PL teams have been VERY good at landing players from outside of the northeast without playing games in those areas.  In general the league has a much more geographically-diverse group of recruits than the MAAC, NEC, or AE, among others    LC is one example, having scholarship players from Minnesota, Ohio, Australia (2), Colorado, California (2), Texas, and Missouri.   Also look at the rosters of Colgate, Bucknell, Lehigh, and American (and Army and Navy, of course) - which are all very diverse geographically, without those teams having played games in the areas where the players came from.

7.  If you don't like fact-based posts, we will have to agree to disagree.  I'm sorry I have offended you.


Bison: you haven't offended me at all.  I am quite accustomed to dealing with snarky know-it-alls like you.  I deal with them every day in New York City.  Your "fact" based posts sometimes leave me cold.  You clearly enjoy taking shots at us LC Folks but we don't do the same to you - we respect the Bison, admire the school, and are especially impressed with the B-ball program in Lewisburg.  I strongly suggest you find something else to write about rather than correcting us all the time.  Your "facts" especially with the scheduling leave me hollow and your lecture on why the league schedules teams in the Northeast was condescending in the worst way.  We certainly know why the scheduling is done the way it is, and don't need you to explain it.  Back to my original point, I think the PL and LC in particular needs to play a tougher OOC Schedule with more Ivies and more St. Joes, LaSalle and Villanovas.  Let's scratch the NEC Losers.  Your alternative that this year's OOC schedule was Ok except for FDU was a really weak response.  You never mentioned my comments on the preference for playing the old Middle Atlantic Conference schools from Philly.

Enough of this for one night.  If you continue your snarky "fact" based posts, I will continue to call you out.

       Lafayette Sports Fan Forum Forum Index -> Men's Basketball
Page 1 of 1
Create your own free forum | Buy a domain to use with your forum