[RichH]

I've  been ranting all afternoon. Anyway go see on AGS I hope my take on it is wrong.


AGS deleted thread, do not know why

go to ncaa.org  the press release as of today

[Guest]

Jul 21, 2009 8:40:20 AM

The NCAA News

Fordham has declared its intent to offer athletics scholarships for football student-athletes beginning in 2010, and the Patriot League now will grapple with whether to allow its member institutions to follow suit.

The league’s presidents will decide by December 31, 2010, what direction to take.

Executive Director Carolyn Femovich said several factors will influence the Patriot League’s decision, including economic conditions, Title IX requirements, and the history and tradition of the conference as one that does not offer football athletics aid.

Fordham will remain a full member of the Patriot League in 2009 and become an associate member for the 2010 season. If the conference decides to allow its schools to offer football scholarships, it could remain a full member of the league.

The decision to award athletics aid to football players at Fordham had little to do with economics. Unlike most institutions in the Patriot League, Fordham counted need-based aid given to football players toward its gender-equity limits under Title IX. The school already offered a comparable number of athletics scholarships to women as to men.

At most Patriot League schools, however, the need-based aid awarded to football players is not counted toward gender-equity limits. Therefore, if other institutions in the conference were to move toward awarding athletics aid in football, they also would need to award a comparable amount of athletics aid to female student-athletes to meet generally accepted Title IX requirements. For example, if a school were to offer 60 scholarships in football, it would need to offer 60 scholarships to female student-athletes as well.

For Fordham, which already counted its need-based aid as a scholarship for gender-equity purposes, the scale is already balanced. The school simply repackaged its dollars to be more strategic and assist in the recruitment of football student-athletes. (The school outlines its decision and its repercussions in a detailed Q&A document.) Most Patriot League schools do not count that way, and any move toward allowing the scholarships could be cost-prohibitive for them.

Additionally, the original Patriot League philosophy was grounded in treating student-athletes like the rest of the student body, especially with respect to academics and financial aid. The conference began as a football conference in the mid-1980s, expanding to a multisport league in 1990-91.

“To a certain degree, there is a sense that this is why we came together, this is how football developed and this is something we want to preserve,” Femovich said. “We just believe philosophically that it’s important to treat student-athletes like other students with regard to financial aid. But the reality is all of our institutions have begun awarding scholarships in other sports, certainly in men’s and women’s basketball … We have evolved as a league to a position of athletics aid being permissive in all sports of an institution’s choosing – except football.”

Femovich called the decision to offer basketball scholarships (made in the mid-1990s) “philosophical and practical.” Most Patriot League schools also offer aid in other sports, at varying levels.

The behavior of the economy over the next 18 months likely will influence discussions among the league’s remaining full members. The conference executives hope to see an improvement in the financial climate by December 2010.

“It’s not too early or too late,” Femovich said. “If we move in the direction of athletics merit aid, it means that we would begin recruiting for the class that would enter in the fall of 2012. We will see how the economy develops. It allows institutions to have internal discussions in a much more focused way.

“And it doesn’t create a situation where Fordham would be too far ahead (of the other institutions in recruiting). If we decide not to change our policy, then Fordham needs to know so they can look for a new home. And we will need to begin exploring our options for other membership opportunities as well.”

Femovich imagined that, should the presidents move toward football scholarships, the implementation would be similar to the league’s move toward basketball scholarships: Simply declare the football aid permissible and allow each institution to make decisions on its own.

“That approach allows schools to determine the best approaches on their individual campuses,” Femovich said. “I think if we went that direction, some might work to get up to 58 or 60 equivalencies, and others might say we’ll do scholarships for key athletes and other individuals that might not have the need, but we’ll do a combination, a hybrid model.”

While the conference office and other members weren’t surprised by Fordham’s decision – discussions have been ongoing within the league for some time – Femovich said the timing wasn’t ideal. The recession is forcing schools to make deep cuts in all areas of the institution, and asking for more dollars for athletics is difficult to balance with the league’s academic focus.

“We’ll get through this as well,” Femovich said. “We have a strong commitment to each other, Fordham as well as the rest of our football group. We want to maintain that association if at all possible.”

[Lafalum]

For Lafayette its a little more complicated. Although there is a budget of equal aid for female athletes, on the need side it is never used in full, and the reality is there is less aid for female athletes than male athletes. Scholarships for football would change that, in that aid equality would then become mandated.( The biggest supporters of football scholarships are women's lacrosse, soccer,and maybe softball.)

[RichH]

Femovich seems to be saying other members have similar issues, as I do not think conversion of need aid already given for fb players will be an issue if you have a similar # of female aid to convert. If u do not then $$$$, not to mention any increase in aid.

[Lafalum]

I have been told by those at Lafayette that supposedly are in position to know, the other schools in the PL have a similar problem to us. ( More actual aid dollars are given to men than to women)  I can't know for sure, since I am not nearly as close to actual information as I am at Lafayette. For us, adding FB scholarships would mean adding to the total aid need at a time when the demand for aid is at an all time high. However, adding a play for pay game does soften the blow, but doesn't solve the shortfall,given the high tuition rate and a philosophical aversion to it by the BOT, the administraton and faculty.
Internally, at Lafayette this is causing a huge  battle as to who gets aid and who gets admitted. I am told the aid level is now at or above 40 % of the tuition, room and board charge which is not sustainable. As a result there is a priority to accept those who can pay the tab.
Philosophically, this grates on those interested in diversity, and the need blind goal. Football scholarships are a complication. In addition, the athletic department has been told to hold their aid numbers at last years levels ( keep in mind tuition has been increased 4 pct).
I expect there will be roster reductions in the high need non-scholarship sports at a minimum and overall reductions in all sports to meet budget reductions mandated at 3 % per year for the next three years.
I know all you guys like to talk about x's and o's and who the starting quarterback will be and so do I. But the mismanagement by this BOT of the college's balance sheet will have far more to do with our performance on the field than any effort by a clever offensive coordinator or who turns out to be the starting quarterback.
All that being said we would still be better off with athletic scholarships that have a academic floor than we are now. I am also in favor of merit aid in general. The discounting that is going on in higher education distorts value, doesn't encourage cost savings, promotes inefficiencies, and makes looking and shopping for an college more like buying a used car than what it should be, searching for value. In addition, colleges have little incentives to think about costs. ( Do we we really need a diversity dean and her staff, what is the correct size for the school given the demands of the marketplace, does a course that attracts three students need to be offered..I could go on).

[TheTruth]

Lafalum: are you mellowing in your old age?

Thanks for this post.  It really clarifies the current financial aid issue for football and why it is simply not a matter of re-packaging the financial aid dollars.  It seems that football scholarships need to be put "on hold" until we get our budget in order.  A discount rate of 40% is not sustainable for the College.  The scary part is Carolyn mention of the original mision of the league.  At this point the only way to preserve the original mssion of the Patriot League (Colonial League) is a move to Div. 3.

[2008pards]

In reading and then re-reading the original article on ncaa.org, it seems like there will always be an inherent double standard on this issue concerning football. When Dr. Femovich speaks about the "original mision" of the PL being non scholarship, she immediately thereafter mentions the fact that scholarships are now neccesarily being given in other sports. She states:

"To a certain degree, there is a sense that this is why we came together, this is how football developed and this is something we want to preserve,” Femovich said. “We just believe philosophically that it’s important to treat student-athletes like other students with regard to financial aid. But the reality is all of our institutions have begun awarding scholarships in other sports, certainly in men’s and women’s basketball … We have evolved as a league to a position of athletics aid being permissive in all sports of an institution’s choosing – except football.”

Femovich called the decision to offer basketball scholarships (made in the mid-1990s) “philosophical and practical.” Most Patriot League schools also offer aid in other sports, at varying levels.

IMHO, Femovich's premise is inconsistent and convaluted at best. If, as she says, it's "important to treat student-athletes like other students with regard to financial aid" then why doesn't every PL school's student body population mirror it's football team's make up? Are most PL schools enrollment demographics indicative of anywhere from 20-30+% African American? I don't know but I would venture a guess they do not.

It is just as "philosophical and practical" today to offer scholarships in football as it was to offer them in hoops in the 90's. In reading LC's glossy and no doubt expensively prepared literature, it seems very clear to me that since "Diversity" is such an important issue in the mission of the school wouldn't it be a practical outcome of athletic scholarships in football? Isn't it reasonable that the diverse student population increases the school desires would almost naturally occur if football were to expand to scholarships as well? I am of course assuming a sizeable % of the student-athletes who would be offered scholarships would be minorities (largely African American) and most would not be able to afford an LC education without this type of financial support. Accepting that, then offering scholarships in football would be a win-win for the college. The Diversity numbers would significantly improve and they could keep the enrollment constant with the unparrallelled student- teacher ratio and class size goals the college desires.  

With many Ivy League schools offering lower income families a very nominal cost of attending college, how does the PL expect to keep attracting any student-Athletes to the fold? By raising tuition? By having those that can, pay more? Of the incoming class of 2012, how many African American students are included? How many are playing sports? How many are playing football? Does the college want the overall "diversity number" to equate to the football team's percentage? Or is it just lip service? Is having roughly 30% of the school be African American a goal of Dr Weiss and the new Dean of Diversity? If so, then there is a cost to do this.

The question the school must face is simply this: What price are they willing to pay to have "Diversity" be the raison d'etre behind the existence and future success of the college? Also, does the "Diversity" goal include both men and women of color? If so, then LC will desperately need to admit more African American females? How many AA females are on the basketball, field hockey, lacrosse, soccer, softball and/or swimming teams? Adding scholarships for football would certainly have to improve the diversity quotient of many women's teams wouldn't it?

[TheRock90]

I don't have any statistics but based on my observations, it seems that football, mens and womens track and field, and mens and womens basketball account for almost all the African-American athletes. Therefore offering scholarships in track and field as well as football will increase the percentage and help the college meet its goals. Look how easy that was, we just helped improve the diversity and eliminated a whole department saving a bunch of money.

[Pard94]

[carney2]

I am suffering a disconnect here.  I do not understand the difference between merit aid and equivalencies as it relates to Title IX compliance.  Consider:

We currently offer 54 equivalencies, more or less.  By doing this we are able to budget financial aid for female athletes but not spend it.  (I feel absolutely ridiculous just typing these words, but apparently that's the way it's done at many PL schools.)  We are considered in compliance for Title IX calculations.

but

If we switch to merit aid for football (and, let's keep it simple here by saying that we offer the exact same number of football "scholarships" as we offered football "equivalencies") we apparently do not spend any more money or divert any more resources to male athletes than we did under the "old" system, but we now have to match these merit aid awards with an equal number of female awards.

Have we followed Alice through the looking glass?  Have the inmates gained control of the asylum?  I don't know which is the more ludicrous argument - the first where we budget but don't spend and are considered in compliance; or the 2nd where we theoretically don't spend one penny more on  the males, but because we change the name of the aid are forced to spend something approaching a million dollars on gender based athletic aid.  Either way this is nuts.  Can anyone unravel this with anything better than just a reiteration of the Walter Cronkite line:  "that's the way it is?"

[Lafalum]

The logic is when you offer merit aid you can control who  it goes to. If you affirmatively give more aid to males under athletic scholarships or least not in proportion to the female population at the school you are denying equal opportunity as defined under Title ix. Presumably the women athletes today do not qualify for as much need based aid the men.
As to eliminating everything but track,basketball, football etc...you  need 16 sports to qualify for Div 1 and if you play div 1 football you must play div 1 in the other sports.
It's all about the money folks, and not just athletic aid. Because our BOT allowed the portfolio to be 50 pct invested in "alternative investments" there is not enough aid to go around. Total aid amounts to nearly, or even above 40 pct of tuition,board,and room. That is not sustainable.

[RichH]

Read a lot recently. I find I can understand the words and even some sentences but whole paragraphs impossible to squeeze into any logical framework. My eduspeak and gobbldygook dictionary in way out of date to translate. While I may be a bit overwrought here, I find it very hard to match statedgoals with methodology. I find , having 2 girls ,that I am in favor of increased opportunity for girls but at what cost. Activists claim that it is a shame that boys lose sports but it is the fault of ADs not them is so simplistic as to be insulting .  I just do not know what can be done.

[carney2]

Thanks to Lafalum for leading me out of the woods.  Here is (much) the same explanation from RichH on the Lehigh board - and it brings up another question:

"Good explanation on Lafayette board, some if not many count need aid as student fin. aid same as any student would get except it is targeted to a fb player. No need or balancing as all students technically eligible for same aid .Once you move it to specific merit aid only available to fb players then must balance. Problem arises if as at LC you have substantially less equivalent female need aid to move over to merit to balance the ledger. Do not know for us but from what I have heard we have more than sufficient aid on both sides to equal out. Whether we can increase aid from 54 to 57-8 or so with equal raise for girls, given eco. dont know."

This seems to indicate that Lehigh may be in much better shape than Lafayette in terms of making the switch to football scholarships.  Does anyone have any information as to how LC stacks up to the rest of the Patriot League in  terms of being able to make a relatively pain free switch to football scholarships?  Are we looking at a situation that will be the same only different as the Lafayette reaction to basketball scholarships back in the 90s?  D-III football in a D-I stadium?

[Lafalum]

If you really want your head to explode read the account on LFN on the changes contemplated by the NCAA to count need based aid as athletic aid!!

[RichH]

Read LFN , can you imagine the can, heck ton , of worms counting need aid will be . How? No doubt there are schools out there that use need aid to supplement merit aid but what about those that dont. I can envision a place with only need aid and 50-50 population but 70% of the need aid goes to male athletes. Is that the case.?

[Franks Tanks]

Why can a school like Wofford with 1,200 students and a rather small endowment offer 63 scholly's?  They also have a pretty high tuition and nowhere near the money we do.  

Bucknell and Lehigh have wrestling and Colgate and Holy Cross have Hockey, yet we are in the worst position in respect to title IX.  These schools have more male sports and athletes, yet we are worse off?? I dont get how we got to this point.

[bison137]

[DFW HOYA]

[RichH]

Generally, endowment not an issue for merit aid exceptin those situations where $$ is set up specifically for ath. merit aid. ie Richmond fb aid all alumni endowment funds set up for that aid. Wrestling at LU funded same way. Seems new alumni contributions necessary to fund much of the possible changes.

We all better be chasing those deep pockets