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PardsLax

at Bucknell

There is probably plenty of good discussion left to be had in the prior thread but I wanted to get the group's opinion about the Bucknell game.  I'm guessing most everyone is expecting the Pards to lose this one, probably by a lot.  What would people consider to be signs of improvement in this game?  This is in light of a 5 goal loss to a weaker than usual Navy team and a 6 goal loss to what appears to be a very good Fairfield team.  Bucknell has two overtime loses to ranked teams, a 2 goal loss to #3/4 UMass, not to mention a 14-9 win over Navy.  The Bison offense has scored in the double digits in every game except for the UMass game while we have only managed that against Providence and Wagner.  Maybe a four goal loss to Bucknell would be a reasonably "good" outcome?
Long Time Fan

Re: at Bucknell

 Maybe a four goal loss to Bucknell would be a reasonably "good" outcome?[/quote]

I understand where you are going with this but if Carney reads this thread
(Carney--lacrosse--??) I would bet he would have an interesting point of view on how "loss" and "reasonably "good" outcome" fit together for Lafayette.

Perhaps "Lafayette has lost half of it's BOT would be a reasonably good outcome.
PardsLax

Yeah, I'm just looking for any glimmers of hope.
RichH

A win would be nice , a loss by 4 or less competitive. Loss by 6-8 real unfortunately
Bogus Megapardus

Never mind carney - he'd bulldoze Metzgar, fill in the swimming pool and sell the volleyball equipment for scrap were it up to him.  Lucky for some of us it's not.

Bucknell was voted unanimously as the #1 team in the Patriot League pre-season poll for good reason.  They have the talent, the coaching and the program inertia to win on a consistent basis.  Over the last several seasons Bucknell seems more like an offense-driven scoring machine, but what really sets the Bison apart is defense and its execution.

Bucknell's D typically knows how to slide with their man, block, ride in close and disrupt shots.  By contrast, I've seen to many instances this season where Lafayette's version of "defense" consists of flailing the end of a long pole helplessly in front of an escaping attacker when it's much too late to do anything.  Watch the Bison on man down - they're masters of the penalty kill.  They slide and disrupt and they don't allow the man up to get a shot off.  Then if they get a TO or a save, they'll easily eat up the rest of the penalty with their clean execution on clear and transition.

Bucknell has lost three games this season by a total of four goals - an 11-9 loss to UMass, which is undefeated and currently ranked #3 in the nation, a 13-12 overtime loss to #10 Villanova, and a 10-11 overtime loss to #20 Delaware.  The Bison have won their last three in a row, including a 14-9 win over Navy.

Bucknell's most challenging games will be its final two vs. Lehigh and Colgate, both of which are 6-1 and both are ranked.  They also have a game at Penn State coming up, so maybe the best we can hope for is that they're looking WAY past us.

A Pard loss Saturday will be demoralizing.  It will effectively kill our season and any hope of the PL tournament, let alone the championship.  So maybe it's time for Terry Mangan to throw caution to the wind.  Or maybe it's time to empty the benches and let the freshmen show what they've got for next year, especially on defense.

Unfortunately there won't be any live video stream of this game, and I have no plans to take the trip to Lewisburg this weekend.  But you can bet I would if the PL title were on the line.
bison137

Thus far this year the Bucknell defense is weaker than it was last year, which is not surprising considering they lost two of three starters plus a freshman who might have started.    Also they are significantly weaker at the X this year with Jake Clarke having graduated.    Combine the two and they are giving up a lot more goals.

One other factor that makes BU weaker than the team that was picked for 1st is the absence of All-American mid Charlie Streep, who is still recovering from a torn ACL.    He is hoping to return for the last four regular season games and the tournament - but it is hard to imagine him playing at nearly as high a level as the past few years.

It wouldn't surprise me to see a high-scoring game where LC hangs around.
Bogus Megapardus

137 - I totally forgot about Streep's absence.  Thanks for reminding.  Lax is rough on the ACL (as we all know) and nobody I can think of has come back during the next season with any real effectiveness, let alone at all.  Streep will have to wear a hinged brace and be used very conservatively if he does play.

I'm having a little more confidence in our FOGO guys after the last two games.  It looks like the Bison are relying on Ryan Gutowski and a freshman at the X.  I can't see either of us having a major advantage.  It's what you do with the possession that will matter here.

Guys like Dickson, Bailey and Heritage for Bucknell are incredibly accurate shooters.  If we can't disrupt them on D we're going to have a very long day.  I assume Feeney will start in goal for the Bison.  He's good, but he's not R.J. Wickham.  So we'll see.
seenalot

Would love to be wrong but think we lose by 5 or more.

At this point I'd give the frosh as much PT as they can handle - although I also assume that if there was a Steele Stanwick on the roster someplace he'd be playing.....ie not likely to find a diamond in the rough on the bench.

Either our D cant athletically handle that kind of a sliding defense or the Coach isnt coaching it....but you are right flailing sticks isnt getting it done.

This is going to take time to fix - would like to see some improvement game to game - even if its baby steps.
bison137

Bogus Megapardus wrote:
137 - I totally forgot about Streep's absence.  Thanks for reminding.  Lax is rough on the ACL (as we all know) and nobody I can think of has come back during the next season with any real effectiveness, let alone at all.  Streep will have to wear a hinged brace and be used very conservatively if he does play.

I'm having a little more confidence in our FOGO guys after the last two games.  It looks like the Bison are relying on Ryan Gutowski and a freshman at the X.  I can't see either of us having a major advantage.  It's what you do with the possession that will matter here.

Guys like Dickson, Bailey and Heritage for Bucknell are incredibly accurate shooters.  If we can't disrupt them on D we're going to have a very long day.  I assume Feeney will start in goal for the Bison.  He's good, but he's not R.J. Wickham.  So we'll see.



1.   Streep actually tore his ACL in fall ball, so he won't be coming back in-season.    By the end of March, he will be about six months post-surgery.   Likely can play - but hard to believe he'll be at anywhere near the level where he was last spring when he played so phenomenally against Virginia in the tournament.

2.  Yes, I'm sure Feeney will be the starter, although his playing time was limited vs Drexel the other night.    Fedorjaka does not hesitate to change GK's in-game, although the original reason for the change was reportedly a Feeney equipment problem.   Then Grinberg got a hot hand and Feeney never returned.
Bogus Megapardus

I hate to have to post this, but does anybody know anything about Terry Mangan's contract, particularly, when it expires?  I realize that Lafayette is never going to buy out a lax coach contract, but simply allowing it to expire is a different story.

The rumor a couple of years ago was that Mangan had his name out there for Williams or Amherst or whatever.  Maybe his contrast was up for renewal at that point, I don't know.

I like Mangan and I really appreciate all of his effort to keep the Pards apace in the post-Lawson era.  But really might be time to step up.  If we're not quite ready financially to offer real lacrosse scholarships, we have to consider what a committed Division I coaching staff might be able to do.

Aside from the Academies, I still think Lafayette is better positioned than anyone else in the PL to excel in lacrosse.  It would be so cruel just to sit and watch Lehigh take that wind from our sails.
Bogus Megapardus

bison137 wrote:

1.   Streep actually tore his ACL in fall ball, so he won't be coming back in-season.    By the end of March, he will be about six months post-surgery.   Likely can play - but hard to believe he'll be at anywhere near the level where he was last spring when he played so phenomenally against Virginia in the tournament.

2.  Yes, I'm sure Feeney will be the starter, although his playing time was limited vs Drexel the other night.    Fedorjaka does not hesitate to change GK's in-game, although the original reason for the change was reportedly a Feeney equipment problem.   Then Grinberg got a hot hand and Feeney never returned.


1.  It's remarkable how many ACLs go out in fall ball, isn't it?  I have very close personal experience on this account.  The guys are not in game shape and they think they can do more than they really should.

2.  For the Pards, Terry Mangan keeps switching between Andrusko and Hyatt in the net.  From my chair, I've yet to see exactly why he's making the change, though it was reported on GoLeopards.com that the decision between the two went down to the last minute before the opener.  Maybe it's the clears, maybe its the defensive calls, and maybe its just the recognition and reaction. Or maybe he's just treating this as a training camp for next season - I don't know.
Lafalum

Re: at Bucknell

Long Time Fan wrote:
 

Perhaps "Lafayette has lost half of it's BOT would be a reasonably good outcome.


We could only dream!!!
Bogus Megapardus

Re: at Bucknell

Lafalum wrote:

We could only dream!!!



The BOT has to be concerned with the long term academic and financial wherewithal of the college.  Lafayette is not a place that needs to go out and make a name for itself in sports in order to become relevant against a plethora of what's-the-difference institutions across the country.  We accomplished that a long, long time ago.  We're already there.

The point is, we have to accept and keep the advantage of what's already ours.  Losing it in a heartbeat is a heck of a lot easier and faster than maintaining excellence by assuming the effort and foresight that was employed by our forbearers in generations past.

Lafayette's place in history is something really special.  I know it's hard for some to recognize the importance of that when they're concerned only with their personal status and advancement in the challenging field of academics.  Finding the wherewithal to keep pace and to excel despite challenges likely is difficult for some whose say-so is valued greater than others in current Lafayette circles.

But we've made it this far.  We are Division I.  We are Patriot League.  We are distinct and a huge cut above our peers in the region and (increasingly) in the nation.  We have to highlight and underscore science and engineering and display extraordinarily rigorous intellect in the arts  while proving to ourselves and others that our fitness excellence extends to human competition.

Lafayette graduates ought to be the pinnacle of educational refinement in mind, body and soul.  We've had to foundation to continue it all along, so let's not lose sight.
Lafalum

I have heard that the Engineering stem courses will be cut by 2 and replaced with 2 liberal arts courses beginning next semester. A lot of unhappy alums and engineering faculty around. sorry I know this is a lacrosse thread.
Bogus Megapardus

Lafalum wrote:
I have heard that the Engineering stem courses will be cut by 2 and replaced with 2 liberal arts courses beginning next semester. A lot of unhappy alums and engineering faculty around. sorry I know this is a lacrosse thread.


I don't run this forum, but I hope that conversations about the coalescence amongst athletics and academics would be welcome here.  That said, there's no possible way that I'd support a diminution of requirements in engineering and science.

Lafayette always has designed and built the physical and social infrastructure, and created the value-added commodities, that help our society thrive.  America doesn't need any more college graduates who "feel" and "lament."  We need graduates who "think" and "accomplish."  This has been Lafayette's identity throughout its existence.

Whether it is in biology, engineering, fundamental mathematical economics, or rigorous, method-based humanities, we need graduates who have been inspired to think and create.  We don't need a bunch of indoctrinates like the Ivies produce year after year.  And I remain convinced as always that high-achieving athletes, self-driven to personal aspiration, constitute some of the very best candidates able serve that objective.

Even if they play lacrosse, carney2.  Laughing
PardsLax

it seems like Terry is more willing this year to put in the freshmen.  The senior middies (Serling, Allis, Prusoff) have all been putting up pretty decent points but I think he's really trying to find someone on the second middie line who will emerge as a consistent contributor.  Sonny Round was injured for much of this academic year but has been inserted at midfield the last few games.  From what Mangan said during the preseason media call, they are hoping for great things from Round.  At the very least, this game experience for some of the freshmen and sophomores, even if they don't play as much as they like, is a positive change.
Bogus Megapardus

PardsLax wrote:
it seems like Terry is more willing this year to put in the freshmen.  The senior middies (Serling, Allis, Prusoff) have all been putting up pretty decent points but I think he's really trying to find someone on the second middie line who will emerge as a consistent contributor.  Sonny Round was injured for much of this academic year but has been inserted at midfield the last few games.  From what Mangan said during the preseason media call, they are hoping for great things from Round.  At the very least, this game experience for some of the freshmen and sophomores, even if they don't play as much as they like, is a positive change.


Steve Serling's little bro turns it over too much in the mix but he's doing his damnedest out there, and it shows.  Protect the rock, guys, but take a little guidance from his effort.
Bogus Megapardus

Already 3-0 Bucknell.  Pards have zero chance.
Bogus Megapardus

Pards lose to Bucknell, 17-6.

Ask for Mangan's immediate resignation.  Right now, mid-season.  If he doesn't submit it, fire him.  I've had it.
seenalot

According to those on the sidelines who have emotional ties to the team (ie parents of kids playing, not sitting) Terry lost the team last year - clearly thats not improving - yes, its time.
Bogus Megapardus

I didn't see the game.  I had only Gametracker stats.  We lost in every conceivable statistical area.  But I notice that Colin Serling took some FO for the first time, and was successful.  Wow, ya think maybe you should have thought of that a little sooner?

There is NO WAY lacrosse will we successful against an increasingly competitive Patriot League the way things are going.  Yesterday, Lehigh beat Army and Colgate doubled up on Fairfield, 12-6.  Yes, the very same Fairfield that just handed us our arse.

ESPNU broadcast the Hopkins-Syracuse game yesterday.  Packed stadium in Baltimore with thousands of fans.  You talk about skill, efficiency, control and brilliant coaching, that game had it all.  Plus, ESPN finally is learning how to make lacrosse show well on television.

The Pards next game is vs. Army at Fisher next Saturday.  If Lafayette's athletic department cares even a little about men's lax, there ought to be changes in place by then.

If not, then it looks as if carney2 will get his wish.
PardsLax

I just followed the game on Gametracker as well.  Again, it really looked like faceoffs and clears were the Pards' Achilles Heel.  When we did get the faceoff, it seemed like it was predictably followed by a turnover and/or failed clear so we had a limited number of offensive possessions.  It's hard to assess the goaltending situation without actually seeing the game but when the box score shows:

Hyatt: 13 shots on goal, 4 saves, 9 goals allowed
Andrusko:  11 shots on goal, 3 saves, 8 goals allowed

it captures your attention.  This isn't a knock on the goalies but something clearly was not working on the defensive end of the field.  

As long as Lafayette has a lot of guys make the PL Academic Honor Roll, I don't see the administration making any coaching changes.  I'm sure having a winning men's lacrosse team was kind of nice a couple of years ago but having a losing team does not seem to be a concern at all.

The best we can hope for this season is that the guys can use this experience to build on for the next few years.  This is probably just wishful thinking but perhaps this will be similar to the 2010 senior class who went 1-12 their freshmen year and 4-9 their sophomore year.  Then in their junior year, they started to make some noise, going 6-7 and played well the second half of the year, upsetting Lehigh in the final game.  Wins against Marist and Holy Cross would at least indicate that the team can win games against teams that are of comparable ability.
Bogus Megapardus

PardsLax - now go and look at the shots, SOGs and saves of our opponents against us over the last three games.  The flip side of the coin tells a story as well.

Terry Mangan played his career in goal.  While I never played in goal, it stands to reason that a goalie would be make the best, most well-rounded coach.  You don't necessarily need to have the skill in order to teach the skill.  Goalies are students of the game.  They call the defense and the see the entire field - what works, what doesn't, is setting up where and who is (or isn't) sliding to cover whom.

I have no doubt that Mangan is a serious student of the game as well.  He's recruiting from all the right schools.  We have talent.  But we look and play . . . BAD.  And it's getting worse compared to our peers.  We're not slow and we're not unskilled and we're not all that sloppy.  But we're not even close to being competitive.

It can fixed I think, but that means a regime change.  We need a smart, diligent, hardworking student of the game from one of the committed DI programs to get this program back in gear.
Bogus Megapardus

To Whom It May Concern - there were 6,000 fans in attendance yesterday at Homewood Field to watch Johns Hopkins take on Syracuse.  And they all got their money's worth.  

We're doing something wrong, don't ya think?
seenalot

"We're doing something wrong, don't ya think?"  

You want the just lax list .... or shall we go further?  

We are not firing Terry mid-year.  This tailspin did not start yesterday, or this year - but its the second season of being in a cesspool.   Bruce needs to make a hard call - or Terry needs to make it for him.  Won't change if you dont change the landscape somehow.
Bogus Megapardus

seenalot - I could be over-reacting, I know.  The collegiate lacrosse history in my family spans four generations, so I suppose I take the game personally at times!

My hope it that potential students WANT to come to Lafayette and to play the founder's game in Easton.  I'm not so sure we're setting the table for that kind of desire.  I could be wrong, but I just don't see it.  Kids who don't check out Lafayette are missing something great, though, as we all know.

I just want us to do well!
Lafalum

I was thinking last night. What success we've had in a particular sport had individual alumni providing support and guidance. Bourger in football, Rappolt field hockey, Kamine in baseball and soccer, and the Linville's who are providing key support in women lacrosse. (although the large leap forward hasn't happened yet). What I'm really saying is if it wasn't for these people who are paying supplemental money for assistants, travel, and other needs even those sports would be in real trouble.

Bottom line, without the friends groups and the Maroon Club it would be worse than awful. Three year ago we were trying to get a Kirby ( who was a fine lacrosse player ) and he didn't t come and that coincided with our best season.  Co incidence ?  I thought I heard he went to Duke.
Bogus Megapardus

Were I able, financially, to do so at the present (or were I to win the lottery), I would endow the "Class of 19-whatever Head Coach" in both MLax and WLax, endow two lax scholarships per year for each team, and fund a unique, very wild-looking, colorful and outrageous 4,000 seat M/W Lax-specific facility at Metzgar.  

It would have seats right up on the action, a tailgating spot in cooperation with a local bar & grill, and an equipment and stick-stringing booth for the kids. I'd also provide in perpetuity for a couple of "ball dogs," like in the old days - a couple of whip-smart border collies that would go after errant shots and provide a helluva halftime show after roaming the sidelines and distracting opposing coaches during the game.  A ball dog who leaps up and puts the ball in the FOGO's cradle would be a crowd-pleaser on Animal Planet at least, if not CBS Sports.

At one time I was pretty close to being there, but things in the economy being what they are, it's going to have to wait.  But if I garner the financial wherewithal at some point, I'll do it.
Lafalum

Can't wait.....Ill be looking fwd to the dedication ceremony
fairweather

Any idea how much the other LC programs got in endowments?
Lafalum

Baseball has one endowment I have heard for 1 mio for a need based scholarship. It'll be interesting to see if that is converted now. There are some small funds in the other sports( less than 100,000)

There might be some additional endowment in football which I am unaware.
All the named facilities were 100 pct endowed. I believe at Bucknell named facilities are a percentage of the whole cost. I don't know how the other schools operate.
fairweather

Jud Linville '79 Men's Lacrosse CEO - CitiCard, CitiGroup

Your table is ready...
RichH

Meant to post a while ago. Bogie you are right that kids coming from right schools and areas but team overall very small and light.
PardsLax

Just one comparison:

Lehigh -     Ave. Height = 72.9 in; Ave. Weight = 198.0 lbs
Lafayette - Ave. Height = 71.4 in; Ave. Weight = 181.5 lbs
Bogus Megapardus

Small, fast and light is OK for the Attack.  Remember Matt Mersky?  But our D ought to have the size,  burst, and agility of a football strong safety or cover linebacker.  Our LSM and defensive Middies need to be Tight End clones and our FOGO ought to have the impact of a pass-rushing defensive end.

I have no idea what the training regimen is for lax these days.  But a monitored diet, fastidious weight-training program and hard-core speed, burst and agility training couldn't hurt.  

The kids already have the stick skills when the get here.  Obviously they have to keep sharp, and I'm certain that they do.  But let's add the physicality to show that we belong in Division I for keeps.
RichH

Getting some Canadian kids seem to be de rigeur now. Like the LB analogy. Apt. Particularly after watching Cuse and Hopkins
Bogus Megapardus

RichH wrote:
Getting some Canadian kids seem to be de rigeur now. Like the LB analogy. Apt. Particularly after watching Cuse and Hopkins


Canadians are tough to recruit because they have to get full rides - college is free in Canada.  Lacrosse is Canada's national sport (not hockey).  But they play mostly box lacrosse, which calls for different physical skills.

But you're correct, an increased emphasis on attracting Canadians might yield a whole lot of talent.
Xboreturns

Bogus Megapardus wrote:
Small, fast and light is OK for the Attack.  Remember Matt Mersky?  But our D ought to have the size,  burst, and agility of a football strong safety or cover linebacker.  Our LSM and defensive Middies need to be Tight End clones and our FOGO ought to have the impact of a pass-rushing defensive end.

I have no idea what the training regimen is for lax these days.  But a monitored diet, fastidious weight-training program and hard-core speed, burst and agility training couldn't hurt.  

The kids already have the stick skills when the get here.  Obviously they have to keep sharp, and I'm certain that they do.  But let's add the physicality to show that we belong in Division I for keeps.


When you say "burst" are you referring to explosiveness?

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