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bethlehempard

Harvard Post-Mortem

Mr. Wilson, your turn:

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/l...lpl.html#incart_river_mobile_home

This just about says it all. Worst rushing arrack in the FCS. What a difference a year makes.
Pards Rule

Well, we have hit rock bottom. When was the last time we were 1-6, back in 1994 when we started 0-6 and then ran the Patriot League?
bethlehempard

Must be. We are of course underdogs in every game left. Holy Cross took Fordham to OT. Bucknell pushed Army. Colgate beat Georgetown. Lehigh beat Bucknell.
The links are all there now.
Experience gained and getting some guys back on the field may help.
I don't think effort is an issue. I don't have the vantage point even to say such a thing.
Go Pards!
pardfan

[quote="Pards Rule:50862"]Well, we have hit rock bottom. When was the last time we were 1-6, back in 1994 when we started 0-6 and then ran the Patriot League?[/quote

I think we need a new coach.  Given the turnaround at Michigan, we may be underestimating the impact.  New blood, new attitude.  What could it hurt?  If losing won't do it, will the dwindling attendance register with ol' Bruce?
bethlehempard

Check out the end of the Michigan/Michigan State game. It doesn't help the "coach as savior" theory.
Still we have hardcore long-time fans who would prefer a horrible year to a plain bad one just so there might be a change.
Frank has devoted his professional life to this college. He's brought us some great moments. He's a great guy.
For all that, it's hard to argue against change.
Lafalum

bethlehempard wrote:
Check out the end of the Michigan/Michigan State game. It doesn't help the "coach as savior" theory.
Still we have hardcore long-time fans who would prefer a horrible year to a plain bad one just so there might be a change.
Frank has devoted his professional life to this college. He's brought us some great moments. He's a great guy.
For all that, it's hard to argue against change.


Change needs to go higher than that, the problems are systemic!
pardfan

bethlehempard wrote:
Check out the end of the Michigan/Michigan State game. It doesn't help the "coach as savior" theory.
Still we have hardcore long-time fans who would prefer a horrible year to a plain bad one just so there might be a change.
Frank has devoted his professional life to this college. He's brought us some great moments. He's a great guy.
For all that, it's hard to argue against change.


You're right.  I'm just worried about the score differentials.  It's like we don't even belong out there.  As I've said before, the level of fan interest from #150 to the Princeton game was extremely high. (Recalling the Princeton game, I sat practically in the corner in a numbered seat, for goodness sake.  Yes, I know it was Parents' Weekend; but, they don't HAVE to go to the game.)  One hates to lose all that so quickly.
adcs2

I think it was PR's article that stated that FT had asked his OC and DC to deliver a plan for this week's game and that if he didn't like the plans he would come up with his own.

So I ask, whose plans were used and what exactly was the plan?  To rush for negative yards? To allow the Crimson to convert 70% of their third down conversion (many third-and-long)?
Franks Tanks

Before today we were last in the FCS in rushing, and next to last in all of D1.  With our -19 yards today, we may be among the worst in the country regardless of division.  

The one team we beat got crushed today by perennial cellar dweller St. Francis, and the scary thing is that Wagner has to play BYU next week.
flyfisher

Our rushing attack is pitiful. We are down to our 4th string center today. We lost the previous 3 to get injury. We can't run our two best running plays because the o-line struggles to execute the blocking scheme. We are very close to running out of o-linemen. We lost Kern today but no idea for how long. Last week we turned a 3rd string DT into the starting left guard, and he never even played offense in high school.

So what do you Vince Lombardi's out there suggest?
Pard4Life

That was our first shutout since that nefarious 37-0 Penn game days after 9/11.
Pard4Life

We actually played pretty well defensively in the first half. Defense showed alot of guts with some huge plays and just missed getting a big TO. But, offense can't do a thing. Crazy as it sounds but could have won this game with some offense. Very good effort in the first half but again, can't stop the slide in half two.

Frank the genius perhaps cost us a score before the half... two straight run plays in a two minute drill. Put us in a bad spot. Gave H a short field.

It could have been worse but D was a positive for a half.
flyfisher

I admit, we are really bad right now and probably will not get better for a while. Need to get a bunch of players back and even then it may not be enough. Everyone is frustrated.
bethlehempard

In the game for 29 minutes. Punt was tipped and that hurt.
More than today and this truly accursed injury-ridden season, it's the six straight losing years and doubts about this staff's recruiting in the scholarship era.
Not about effort by players or dedication by the staff.
flyfisher

Very fair statement
Newleopardfan2

Let's say that this plays out the way it's looking, and we end the season as PL road kill... with the kind of point differential we're seeing to date... how do you recruit after a season like this? If you don't make a major change in leadership, with 6 straight losing seasons, how do you convince a quality recruit that things will be better in the years to come?
BillS

Newleopardfan2 wrote:
Let's say that this plays out the way it's looking, and we end the season as PL road kill... with the kind of point differential we're seeing to date... how do you recruit after a season like this? If you don't make a major change in leadership, with 6 straight losing seasons, how do you convince a quality recruit that things will be better in the years to come?
You don't and the quality shows in some of our early commits, Bruce knows it's time but will the President agree.
Lafalum

BillS wrote:
Newleopardfan2 wrote:
Let's say that this plays out the way it's looking, and we end the season as PL road kill... with the kind of point differential we're seeing to date... how do you recruit after a season like this? If you don't make a major change in leadership, with 6 straight losing seasons, how do you convince a quality recruit that things will be better in the years to come?
You don't and the quality shows in some of our early commits, Bruce knows it's time but will the President agree.


I'm going to repeat myself the entire athletic program is a disaster. Yes, I know we focus on football on this string but can we honestly say the athletic program is is working on all cylinders? We just received a gift of over 5 mio dollars for a new swimming pool. Even after this very generous gift the pool will still only have six lanes. We still have in all sports underpaid assistants we mismanage our scholarships, Those sports that have scholarships ( especially the non counter sports) have no idea how much money they have to spend. We are raising funds but there is no discussion how much there is to spend next year as we recruit. The AD and coaches have to go through layers of beaucracy to get anything done. There is no central coordination between admissions, facilities,  budgeting or even PR. This management structure looks like it was designed by Jonathan Swift and the result is a Liliputian (SP?) division one program. I believe in the PL model we have an excellent school that has gotten used to underperforming. We need a shake up from the top down and the first step is to have the AD report to the president like most NCAA institutions including every PL school.
flyfisher

Lafalum wrote:
BillS wrote:
Newleopardfan2 wrote:
Let's say that this plays out the way it's looking, and we end the season as PL road kill... with the kind of point differential we're seeing to date... how do you recruit after a season like this? If you don't make a major change in leadership, with 6 straight losing seasons, how do you convince a quality recruit that things will be better in the years to come?
You don't and the quality shows in some of our early commits, Bruce knows it's time but will the President agree.


I'm going to repeat myself the entire athletic program is a disaster. Yes, I know we focus on football on this string but can we honestly say the athletic program is is working on all cylinders? We just received a gift of over 5 mio dollars for a new swimming pool. Even after this very generous gift the pool will still only have six lanes. We still have in all sports underpaid assistants we mismanage our scholarships, Those sports that have scholarships ( especially the non counter sports) have no idea how much money they have to spend. We are raising funds but there is no discussion how much there is to spend next year as we recruit. The AD and coaches have to go through layers of beaucracy to get anything done. There is no central coordination between admissions, facilities,  budgeting or even PR. This management structure looks like it was designed by Jonathan Swift and the result is a Liliputian (SP?) division one program. I believe in the PL model we have an excellent school that has gotten used to underperforming. We need a shake up from the top down and the first step is to have the AD report to the president like most NCAA institutions including every PL school.


This would be a good start. The focus on athletics simply isn't there. I know we offer 23 sports and all that but you can't just roll the ball out there and say we have 23 sports. You now have to commit to them. Scholarships is just the beginning. Compensation, resources and most importantly, proper management and structure. It's pretty evident the place athletics has on campus. However as long as the money keeps flowing in where is the incentive to change?
SixtyEighter

I don't think getting the president involved will help - she seems like a sports moron.She has never been anywhere in her career where they had a D-1 sports program. And  Middlebury has D-III success like our D-I success- by luck rather than design. Occasionally lightning strikes or they stumble on a good coach on the way to somewhere better.We are in deep sports doo-doo.We won't beat anyone else this year in football and even beating Lehigh can't and shouldn't be considered to save the season.Brad Wilson is wrong about  beating Lehigh salvaging the season. Thinking like that has got us to where  we are now. Besides it looks like Lehigh will score 40+ points on us like everyone else. I agree it's not the defense. We have awful special teams play and the worst offense I have ever seen anywhere.Our offense is more responsible for the point differential than the defense in terms of three and outs and field position.We have three years of scholarship players and absolutely no depth. Instead we are plying freshmenThere should be some depth at least among the sophomores  and juniors.Georgetown is better than we are with NO scholarships.Someone on the" bored" of Trustees has to step up and take charge.I have been told over and over by friends and acquaintances on the Board that that was happening but have seen little evidence of any real progress.I have been associated with this school my entire life and it has always been the same BS where the sports are concerned.
bethlehempard

I agree about Lehigh. As much as I love the rivalry and take it to heart because I live behind enemy lines, beating them or just the prospect of beating them covers up too many problems.
The Lehigh-game-only fans are a mixed blessing. They can follow the sport as they wish or not at all but if you care, you care about 11 games. Lehigh. Non-Lehigh. Non-league. The players care.
Still in good years or bad, it's as great an atmosphere as you can find in college sorts.
Some Lehigh fans insist that a third loss will mean the end of Coen. Imagine that standard here.
Next year: in Easton. Finally. We will have by then three classes that haven't taken on the Brown at home?
ed65

"I have been told over and over by friends and acquaintances on the Board that that was happening but have seen little evidence of any real progress.I have been associated with this school my entire life and it has always been the same BS where the sports are concerned."

SixtyEighter is quite correct.  I have heard the same from Board Members and aspiring Board Candidates.

I was disappointed when Alison decided against having Athletics report direct to her.  I thought it was a mistake at the time, and it clearly needs to be reviewed.  I have a huge amount of respect for her so I hope she will listed to those of us who care about athletics.  While I am not an advocate of constant appointment of committees to fix every problem that comes along, it might be a good idea here.  I would put the committee on a very short deadline bec. the problems seem well known, and we are not talking about a nuclear physics issue.  Reading this board over the years should be required reading for any group that will deal with athletics.
Lafalum

ed65 wrote:
"I have been told over and over by friends and acquaintances on the Board that that was happening but have seen little evidence of any real progress.I have been associated with this school my entire life and it has always been the same BS where the sports are concerned."

SixtyEighter is quite correct.  I have heard the same from Board Members and aspiring Board Candidates.

I was disappointed when Alison decided against having Athletics report direct to her.  I thought it was a mistake at the time, and it clearly needs to be reviewed.  I have a huge amount of respect for her so I hope she will listed to those of us who care about athletics.  While I am not an advocate of constant appointment of committees to fix every problem that comes along, it might be a good idea here.  I would put the committee on a very short deadline bec. the problems seem well known, and we are not talking about a nuclear physics issue.  Reading this board over the years should be required reading for any group that will deal with athletics.


Couldn't agree more. Having athletics report directly to her is only a first step. This rabbit hole of a management structure, having athletics assume the status of intramural sports is absurd. It's is intercollegiate sports that attracts crowds to return the school, provide pr contact to the outside world, and encourage donations at every level. To structure the management  of the enterprise assuming the intra-mural frisbee tournament is the same as an intercollegiate athletic contest is a testament to ignorance and a guarantee of failure.
Zeus

[quote="BillS:50880"][quote="Newleopardfan2:50879"]Let's say that this plays out the way it's looking, and we end the season as PL road kill... with the kind of point differential we're seeing to date... how do you recruit after a season like this? If you don't make a major change in leadership, with 6 straight losing seasons, how do you convince a quality recruit that things will be better in the years to come?[/quote]You don't and the quality shows in some of our early commits, Bruce knows it's time but will the President agree.[/quote]

you have no idea who is on and off scholarship. In addition to you having no clue about that, when is it ever a good thing to mock 17-18 year old hs seniors?
Zeus

How much money from 150 went back to football at Lafayette and Lehigh? That's a pretty good place to start to see who is serious about athletics, and who would rather push their own agendas, and use the game's money to fund other areas that THEY want to.
RichH

That money went to Athletic Dept at Lehigh. No idea where it was spent. No idea what LC did with its money.
pardfan

The College can act very quickly when it wants something.  I've seen it happen in another athletics-related area just within the last 9 months (not swimming pool).  Tells me they don't see the problems the rest of us see or have no "sense of urgency" with regard to them.
pardfan

Lafalum wrote:
BillS wrote:
Newleopardfan2 wrote:
Let's say that this plays out the way it's looking, and we end the season as PL road kill... with the kind of point differential we're seeing to date... how do you recruit after a season like this? If you don't make a major change in leadership, with 6 straight losing seasons, how do you convince a quality recruit that things will be better in the years to come?
You don't and the quality shows in some of our early commits, Bruce knows it's time but will the President agree.


I'm going to repeat myself the entire athletic program is a disaster. Yes, I know we focus on football on this string but can we honestly say the athletic program is is working on all cylinders? We just received a gift of over 5 mio dollars for a new swimming pool. Even after this very generous gift the pool will still only have six lanes. We still have in all sports underpaid assistants we mismanage our scholarships, Those sports that have scholarships ( especially the non counter sports) have no idea how much money they have to spend. We are raising funds but there is no discussion how much there is to spend next year as we recruit. The AD and coaches have to go through layers of beaucracy to get anything done. There is no central coordination between admissions, facilities,  budgeting or even PR. This management structure looks like it was designed by Jonathan Swift and the result is a Liliputian (SP?) division one program. I believe in the PL model we have an excellent school that has gotten used to underperforming. We need a shake up from the top down and the first step is to have the AD report to the president like most NCAA institutions including every PL school.


I could be wrong BUT
The project was about $5mln and the class of '70 guy was a "lead donor."  He donated half--maybe 3/4 (considering how long that negotiation took, it's been out there for yrs, still a lot of money)--depending upon how important the project is to the College at the time.  That's the key.  How important the project is to the College at the time.  Having football guys give money for football houses and swimming people give money for pools...those are considerations.
Bogus Megapardus

Well, that was not a lot of fun.  I'm not going to try to be the voice of reason here . . . we stink.  Not as bad as the score would indicate, but right now we stink.

It's a game of inches and half-seconds and we come up just shy every time we touch the ball.  It's not an effort problem, it's just a "something's missing" problem.

The big things I saw were zero run blocking, very little pass protection, receivers were open but Drew did not have time to find them.  

Run defense was very porous in the second half although they started out well.  Pass protection seemed OK but the Crimson kept getting big yards after contact with big, strong, fast receivers that the Pards had trouble bringing down.

Pard offense tried every hook, trap, pull, cross, misdirection and quick-out it could, scheme-wise, because we lacked the raw size, speed and power to run or throw it right at them.  When you're forced to rely on complicated schemes and precise timing, there's little margin for error.

Again it was not as bad as it probably looked on TV but there's a long way to go.

I hope they post a replay of this game.
Pard4Life

RichH wrote:
That money went to Athletic Dept at Lehigh. No idea where it was spent. No idea what LC did with its money.


It didn't go to football Rich... not even Athletics... I don't remember right now because it was 10 months ago... but I think it went into the capital campaign or paid for the events surrounding 150.

I don't even think football or Athletics gets the ticket revenue from Lafayette-Lehigh games anyway.
bethlehempard

From the Crimson:

http://www.thecrimson.com/article...10/18/harvard-football-lafayette/

"They're a really banged-up team" Murphy said.

“Getting a shutout might be one of the hardest things to do in football,” Medes said. “Just being able to pride ourselves on that and have two of them so far this season, it’s pretty great.”
Bogus Megapardus

I'll add this - our humble and VERY little College on the Hill has repeatedly demonstrated support for football far in excess of others of similar size and stature.  Our HC - call him what you will - has devoted his entire adult life to Lafayette football.  He has an experienced, intelligent and seemingly dedicated staff of assistants.  The players come from good programs, were top performers in high school and were recruited by our adversaries and in some cases by FBS schools.

And our fan base is very strong . . . but, if you saw the meager crowd that showed up yesterday you'd never know it.  L-L #150 and the first two home games this year show the drawing potential of this program but you're not going to convince anybody to come if you can't even stay in the game by halftime.

We're very, very young.  We're pretty badly banged up and we lack depth in most positions.  But the players aren't giving up so I'm not giving up as a fan (and former Pard player).  It's tough right now, though, real tough.
Bogus Megapardus

bethlehempard wrote:
From the Crimson:

http://www.thecrimson.com/article...10/18/harvard-football-lafayette/

"They're a really banged-up team" Murphy said.

“Getting a shutout might be one of the hardest things to do in football,” Medes said. “Just being able to pride ourselves on that and have two of them so far this season, it’s pretty great.”


"The same could not be said for the Lafayette defense, which allowed car-sized holes throughout the game."

Heh.  That article has a rather piquant tone.  Well written.  I wonder if The Lafayette could get away with that kind of sass if the Pards had beaten, say, Columbia or Cornell by a similar margin.
ELB

I want to apologize for my criticism of the broadcast team early in the game.  The coverage was rough starting out - confused the names/numbers of the two teams and even missed an entire play, but they settled in and called a good game with insightful color commentary.  (Would have preferred Gary and Mike, who I judge to be top notch.)
flyfisher

Zeus wrote:
How much money from 150 went back to football at Lafayette and Lehigh? That's a pretty good place to start to see who is serious about athletics, and who would rather push their own agendas, and use the game's money to fund other areas that THEY want to.


Amen brother. LC money went toward the 400 million general fundraiser and all the fundraising venues surrounding the game. Athletics is simply not a focus. Fielding 23 teams doesn't make athletics a focus if the 23 teams are crappy.
flyfisher

bethlehempard wrote:
From the Crimson:

http://www.thecrimson.com/article...10/18/harvard-football-lafayette/

"They're a really banged-up team" Murphy said.

“Getting a shutout might be one of the hardest things to do in football,” Medes said. “Just being able to pride ourselves on that and have two of them so far this season, it’s pretty great.”


I thought Harvard was an excellent coached team. Great technique, they don't miss taclkles, they break down, stay low, head up and wrap up. They covered our receivers well, tackling us just after we caught it. Murphy obviously knows what he is doing.

However I did notice one thing that puzzled me. Late in the game we were driving however it was against the 2nd string front 7. When it got down to 4th and short Murphy instead all the starters back in to stop us and preserve the shutout. Couple of ways to take that I guess. Murphy didn't mind rubbing it in a little.
pardfan

flyfisher wrote:
Our rushing attack is pitiful. We are down to our 4th string center today. We lost the previous 3 to get injury. We can't run our two best running plays because the o-line struggles to execute the blocking scheme. We are very close to running out of o-linemen. We lost Kern today but no idea for how long. Last week we turned a 3rd string DT into the starting left guard, and he never even played offense in high school.

So what do you Vince Lombardi's out there suggest?


For starters, take your attitude and shove it.  You've got our money (through scholarship);  isn't that enough?
flyfisher

I didn't think I would hear any solutions. People are quick to complain but don't have any solutions.

As to aid, it doesn't matter whether you have 100% or are a walk on. We want the program to succeed. That's the goal. At least it is if you are focused on the team and not yourself. If you are only focused on yourself you wouldn't really care. The "I've got mine" mentality. It's the attitude above that is part f the problem. You can't have that attitude and succeed as a team. We don't need that attitude.
SIDELINER

The Morning Call:

http://www.mcall.com/sports/colle...football-1017-20151017-story.html

The E-T

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/l...ge_harvard_foot.html#incart_river
NewXbo

pardfan wrote:
flyfisher wrote:
Our rushing attack is pitiful. We are down to our 4th string center today. We lost the previous 3 to get injury. We can't run our two best running plays because the o-line struggles to execute the blocking scheme. We are very close to running out of o-linemen. We lost Kern today but no idea for how long. Last week we turned a 3rd string DT into the starting left guard, and he never even played offense in high school.

So what do you Vince Lombardi's out there suggest?


For starters, take your attitude and shove it.  You've got our money (through scholarship);  isn't that enough?


Dude, you should think and not drink before you post.  You're the guy who predicted the men's basketball team won't win a single league game this season.
Bogus Megapardus

pardfan wrote:
flyfisher wrote:
Our rushing attack is pitiful. We are down to our 4th string center today. We lost the previous 3 to get injury. We can't run our two best running plays because the o-line struggles to execute the blocking scheme. We are very close to running out of o-linemen. We lost Kern today but no idea for how long. Last week we turned a 3rd string DT into the starting left guard, and he never even played offense in high school.

So what do you Vince Lombardi's out there suggest?


For starters, take your attitude and shove it.  You've got our money (through scholarship);  isn't that enough?


Pardfan, I don't think fly meant to offend.  Everyone here is an armchair coach or AD sometimes.  And we're all frustrated right now.  Some of us (including me) have been Pard football fans for ten, twenty, even thirty years or more.

This is a bad stretch and we all know it.  If it continues the college will take measures.  We all know that it takes a comparatively long time for changes to be made on College Hill, but change they do, eventually (i.e., Terry Mangan, Tammy Smith).

We have our opinions but none of us knows what's happening in that locker room right now (other than it's a very nice locker room thanks to some long-time supporters of Lafayette football).  Many of us have been in those locker rooms and we know those kids need our support as much as anything.
flyfisher

Pards fan, we are all frustrated. The alumni are, the coaches, and especially the players. Totally understandable that the alumni are disappointed. I am sorry you are frustrated. The good news is the alumni is a passionate fan base. At least the alumni care. Apathy would be worse.

These kids had options. Whether a walk on or a scholarship player, no one signed up expecting to lose like this. If you take the attitude of "what do I care, I got mine" you're already beaten. That is not conducive to team success. And that is what everyone wants. Kids don't sacrifice most of their college life and train as hard and often as they do to lose. No one wants this.

My point in my earlier post is that we simply don't have many options on offense right now. We can't run the ball, can't run deep routes and get separation, struggle to protect. On defense we don't get pressure and we struggle to cover. We all get it. As I sat through the game yesterday I knew going in the stadium and within the first 5 minutes that we would not be able to execute against Harvard. It was evident we did not have the plays or healthy athletes to move the ball. On defense they did nothing fancy and seldom threw deep because they didn't have to. Their basic offense beat us. It was very frustrating for everyone. Lots of guys come on here and talk about what they would have done. My point is no matter what we did yesterday it wasn't going to work. Sad but it's where we are right now. The good news for you is you have more years and more seasons. These kids have 4, assuming they don't get hurt.
pardfan

flyfisher wrote:
Pards fan, we are all frustrated. The alumni are, the coaches, and especially the players. Totally understandable that the alumni are disappointed. I am sorry you are frustrated. The good news is the alumni is a passionate fan base. At least the alumni care. Apathy would be worse.

These kids had options. Whether a walk on or a scholarship player, no one signed up expecting to lose like this. If you take the attitude of "what do I care, I got mine" you're already beaten. That is not conducive to team success. And that is what everyone wants. Kids don't sacrifice most of their college life and train as hard and often as they do to lose. No one wants this.

My point in my earlier post is that we simply don't have many options on offense right now. We can't run the ball, can't run deep routes and get separation, struggle to protect. On defense we don't get pressure and we struggle to cover. We all get it. As I sat through the game yesterday I knew going in the stadium and within the first 5 minutes that we would not be able to execute against Harvard. It was evident we did not have the plays or healthy athletes to move the ball. On defense they did nothing fancy and seldom threw deep because they didn't have to. Their basic offense beat us. It was very frustrating for everyone. Lots of guys come on here and talk about what they would have done. My point is no matter what we did yesterday it wasn't going to work. Sad but it's where we are right now. The good news for you is you have more years and more seasons. These kids have 4, assuming they don't get hurt.


I've never doubted the players' effort.  We'll pull through this.
Lafalum

It is all about these student athletes,not the administrators,or not the coaches that's what makes it tragic. No one knows it better than alumni who have been through this before.
pardfan

official attendance was 7,108      didn't look like that many on the broadcast
that's a respectable number
RichH

Lafalum wrote:
It is all about these student athletes,not the administrators,or not the coaches that's what makes it tragic. No one knows it better than alumni who have been through this before.

Yup,too many fans and alums seem to forget about the players. Sadly,the same can be said for a number of school administratipns. A recent thread on the Ivy board about playoffs. Dozens of posts about their meaningless in a made up rump division and the Ivy tradition,not one post lending any credence to what the players wanted,other than dismissing it.
bethlehempard

More from the Crimson:

59 ready for Lafayette?

http://www.thecrimson.com/article...tte-football-domination-notebook/
LeopardBall10

Is it just me or is this a bad repeat of a season we've all seen before?As bad as this season has been I haven't heard any comparisons to the 2 win 2010 season yet. In 2010 the team averaged 21 points per game and held opponents to 27, averaged 360 yds of offense and help opponents to 353.

From what I remember that team had an eerily similar rash of season ending injuries (mostly on the D-line and secondary as opposed to the O-line this year), similar coaching staff, and more wins at this point in the season. Major differences is that this current team has fewer bodies, has scholarships, and a slightly more difficult schedule
2010 OOC - Penn, Columbia (their 1 good year), Harvard, Princeton, Stoney Brook
2015 OCC - William and Mary, Delaware, Wagner, Princeton, Harvard

So is Lafayette really just having that much bad luck? I feel like I am hearing the same excuses year after year. The same records pile up year after year.

I'm sorry I am just rambling at this point. So frustrated by what I see at the top and no discernible changes made at all. Frank has been forced to make changes on his staff before. Is this another of those years? I hate to say it, but I don't think that any amount of non-competitive football will cause Frank to lose his job, but it is going to cost someone else theirs.
Franks Tanks

LeopardBall10 wrote:
Is it just me or is this a bad repeat of a season we've all seen before?As bad as this season has been I haven't heard any comparisons to the 2 win 2010 season yet. In 2010 the team averaged 21 points per game and held opponents to 27, averaged 360 yds of offense and help opponents to 353.

From what I remember that team had an eerily similar rash of season ending injuries (mostly on the D-line and secondary as opposed to the O-line this year), similar coaching staff, and more wins at this point in the season. Major differences is that this current team has fewer bodies, has scholarships, and a slightly more difficult schedule
2010 OOC - Penn, Columbia (their 1 good year), Harvard, Princeton, Stoney Brook
2015 OCC - William and Mary, Delaware, Wagner, Princeton, Harvard

So is Lafayette really just having that much bad luck? I feel like I am hearing the same excuses year after year. The same records pile up year after year.

I'm sorry I am just rambling at this point. So frustrated by what I see at the top and no discernible changes made at all. Frank has been forced to make changes on his staff before. Is this another of those years? I hate to say it, but I don't think that any amount of non-competitive football will cause Frank to lose his job, but it is going to cost someone else theirs.


I'm trying not to complain too much right now as this year's team was dealt a really crappy hand, but agree that it gets really depressing when we examine the last 5-6 years.  I just don't see how we get out of this funk without major changes.  Where would this team be with a "normal" number of injuries?  A 3 or 4 win season and losing by 28 instead of 42 to Harvard?  

My major issue is the tremendous lack of consistency and what I believe to be a lack of player development.  Heff and Faragalli were by no means perfect, but you would tell they had a plan and guys got better.  Heff developed quality players out of raw material that was in many cases not all that great. We played better in some games than others, but we didn't really have the total breakdowns a few times year like we do now.

Stan and Mickey have had raw material that was at least equal over the past few years, and I just don't see results.  Year after year on the OL, the faces changes yet the issues remain.  We were a mess last year as well for most of the year despite having a good group of seniors.  Our Qb's don't develop.  Shoop had all the tools, yet didn't really improve.  ZZ was on the same path before his injury, and Drew Reed sort of gets a pass this year, but he was out of sorts last year as well when he played. I know these 2 guys can coach.  They have solid resume's and are respected in the industry, but the recipe just isn't working.  Frank, and Mickey and Stan just don't mesh, and aside from 5 games in 2013 haven't produced a consistent offense since 2009 (when they had Heff's guys).

I feel for the players who are going through this.  I feel for the coaches.  At some point however, don't we have to make changes?  How long can we continue down this path?  Given our schedule and the state of the program it could be 2,3 or 4 more losing seasons if we don't do anything.  Then again I am assuming someone in a leadership role actually cares.
Pards Rule

pardfan wrote:
official attendance was 7,108      didn't look like that many on the broadcast
that's a respectable number


Once again "attendance" is a farce. "Attendance" is tickets sold - and, help me here, given away? - NOT turnstiles churned....It should be the latter.
Pards Rule

Franks Tanks wrote:
LeopardBall10 wrote:
Is it just me or is this a bad repeat of a season we've all seen before?As bad as this season has been I haven't heard any comparisons to the 2 win 2010 season yet. In 2010 the team averaged 21 points per game and held opponents to 27, averaged 360 yds of offense and help opponents to 353.

From what I remember that team had an eerily similar rash of season ending injuries (mostly on the D-line and secondary as opposed to the O-line this year), similar coaching staff, and more wins at this point in the season. Major differences is that this current team has fewer bodies, has scholarships, and a slightly more difficult schedule
2010 OOC - Penn, Columbia (their 1 good year), Harvard, Princeton, Stoney Brook
2015 OCC - William and Mary, Delaware, Wagner, Princeton, Harvard

So is Lafayette really just having that much bad luck? I feel like I am hearing the same excuses year after year. The same records pile up year after year.

I'm sorry I am just rambling at this point. So frustrated by what I see at the top and no discernible changes made at all. Frank has been forced to make changes on his staff before. Is this another of those years? I hate to say it, but I don't think that any amount of non-competitive football will cause Frank to lose his job, but it is going to cost someone else theirs.


I'm trying not to complain too much right now as this year's team was dealt a really crappy hand, but agree that it gets really depressing when we examine the last 5-6 years.  I just don't see how we get out of this funk without major changes.  Where would this team be with a "normal" number of injuries?  A 3 or 4 win season and losing by 28 instead of 42 to Harvard?  

My major issue is the tremendous lack of consistency and what I believe to be a lack of player development.  Heff and Faragalli were by no means perfect, but you would tell they had a plan and guys got better.  Heff developed quality players out of raw material that was in many cases not all that great. We played better in some games than others, but we didn't really have the total breakdowns a few times year like we do now.

Stan and Mickey have had raw material that was at least equal over the past few years, and I just don't see results.  Year after year on the OL, the faces changes yet the issues remain.  We were a mess last year as well for most of the year despite having a good group of seniors.  Our Qb's don't develop.  Shoop had all the tools, yet didn't really improve.  ZZ was on the same path before his injury, and Drew Reed sort of gets a pass this year, but he was out of sorts last year as well when he played. I know these 2 guys can coach.  They have solid resume's and are respected in the industry, but the recipe just isn't working.  Frank, and Mickey and Stan just don't mesh, and aside from 5 games in 2013 haven't produced a consistent offense since 2009 (when they had Heff's guys).

I feel for the players who are going through this.  I feel for the coaches.  At some point however, don't we have to make changes?  How long can we continue down this path?  Given our schedule and the state of the program it could be 2,3 or 4 more losing seasons if we don't do anything.  Then again I am assuming someone in a leadership role actually cares.


FT, good analysis. As you know I am a HUGE Heff fan but we aren't going to get him back from Northwestern. Assuming Frank remains after this season (pretty solid assumption), what do you suggest for changes in the Offensive staff? Fire Fein? Clayton? Both? And who do you suggest we bring in if you're so inclined.
NewXbo

Pards Rule wrote:
pardfan wrote:
official attendance was 7,108      didn't look like that many on the broadcast
that's a respectable number


Once again "attendance" is a farce. "Attendance" is tickets sold - and, help me here, given away? - NOT turnstiles churned....It should be the latter.


There were no turnstiles on Saturday so they have no idea how many actually came to the game. Like basketball, the statisticians make an estimate on the attendance. Since the City of Easton has a tax on the ticket sales, you would think they would have a better handle on it.
Franks Tanks

Pards Rule wrote:
Franks Tanks wrote:
LeopardBall10 wrote:
Is it just me or is this a bad repeat of a season we've all seen before?As bad as this season has been I haven't heard any comparisons to the 2 win 2010 season yet. In 2010 the team averaged 21 points per game and held opponents to 27, averaged 360 yds of offense and help opponents to 353.

From what I remember that team had an eerily similar rash of season ending injuries (mostly on the D-line and secondary as opposed to the O-line this year), similar coaching staff, and more wins at this point in the season. Major differences is that this current team has fewer bodies, has scholarships, and a slightly more difficult schedule
2010 OOC - Penn, Columbia (their 1 good year), Harvard, Princeton, Stoney Brook
2015 OCC - William and Mary, Delaware, Wagner, Princeton, Harvard

So is Lafayette really just having that much bad luck? I feel like I am hearing the same excuses year after year. The same records pile up year after year.

I'm sorry I am just rambling at this point. So frustrated by what I see at the top and no discernible changes made at all. Frank has been forced to make changes on his staff before. Is this another of those years? I hate to say it, but I don't think that any amount of non-competitive football will cause Frank to lose his job, but it is going to cost someone else theirs.


I'm trying not to complain too much right now as this year's team was dealt a really crappy hand, but agree that it gets really depressing when we examine the last 5-6 years.  I just don't see how we get out of this funk without major changes.  Where would this team be with a "normal" number of injuries?  A 3 or 4 win season and losing by 28 instead of 42 to Harvard?  

My major issue is the tremendous lack of consistency and what I believe to be a lack of player development.  Heff and Faragalli were by no means perfect, but you would tell they had a plan and guys got better.  Heff developed quality players out of raw material that was in many cases not all that great. We played better in some games than others, but we didn't really have the total breakdowns a few times year like we do now.

Stan and Mickey have had raw material that was at least equal over the past few years, and I just don't see results.  Year after year on the OL, the faces changes yet the issues remain.  We were a mess last year as well for most of the year despite having a good group of seniors.  Our Qb's don't develop.  Shoop had all the tools, yet didn't really improve.  ZZ was on the same path before his injury, and Drew Reed sort of gets a pass this year, but he was out of sorts last year as well when he played. I know these 2 guys can coach.  They have solid resume's and are respected in the industry, but the recipe just isn't working.  Frank, and Mickey and Stan just don't mesh, and aside from 5 games in 2013 haven't produced a consistent offense since 2009 (when they had Heff's guys).

I feel for the players who are going through this.  I feel for the coaches.  At some point however, don't we have to make changes?  How long can we continue down this path?  Given our schedule and the state of the program it could be 2,3 or 4 more losing seasons if we don't do anything.  Then again I am assuming someone in a leadership role actually cares.


FT, good analysis. As you know I am a HUGE Heff fan but we aren't going to get him back from Northwestern. Assuming Frank remains after this season (pretty solid assumption), what do you suggest for changes in the Offensive staff? Fire Fein? Clayton? Both? And who do you suggest we bring in if you're so inclined.


Good question.  If Frank would fire a top assistant at this juncture, it may be a tough sell to a replacement unless certain promises are made in a coach is waiting scenario.  Assuming we see Frank back next year (which we probably will), he will have one year left on his contract, and how much longer could he realistically go given his health. Point being, it may be hard to convince a guy with options to come onboard without some sort of promise in place for when Frank retires.  I love Heffner as well, and I think he would've been a great HC here, but I think that ship has sailed.  He isn't that much younger than Frank, and he has a great thing going at Northwestern.  Unless he has a strong desire to be a HC before he retires, not sure it make sense for Big Bob to return.
SIDELINER

The Morning Call's follow-up story:

http://www.mcall.com/sports/colle...tte-folo-1018-20151018-story.html

Nothing new this morning from the E-T.
LeopardBall10

Franks Tanks wrote:

Good question.  If Frank would fire a top assistant at this juncture, it may be a tough sell to a replacement unless certain promises are made in a coach is waiting scenario.  Assuming we see Frank back next year (which we probably will), he will have one year left on his contract, and how much longer could he realistically go given his health. Point being, it may be hard to convince a guy with options to come onboard without some sort of promise in place for when Frank retires.  I love Heffner as well, and I think he would've been a great HC here, but I think that ship has sailed.  He isn't that much younger than Frank, and he has a great thing going at Northwestern.  Unless he has a strong desire to be a HC before he retires, not sure it make sense for Big Bob to return.


In my mind, the thing that makes this harder is the fact that many feel the "coach in waiting" promise has already been made to Fein and that's why he came in the first place. Maybe that's not the case, but it will be hard to change that perception in the industry and even harder to come on as an assistant either on a staff with Fein or on a staff that has been together for a number of years and work along side them for a year and keep their trust/support when you get promoted and they don't. Think about that, you boss goes out and hires a guy to be his replacement when you have been working tirelessly to get to that point. Someone's ego is going to be hurt for sure. I'm sure Coach McFadden was just thrilled when he was not asked to take over the DC role after Loose left.

Edit - *Assuming that this is how it goes at the end of the year. I have no knowledge of anything at all, just discussing the issues with the hypothetical situation.
Franks Tanks

LeopardBall10 wrote:
Franks Tanks wrote:

Good question.  If Frank would fire a top assistant at this juncture, it may be a tough sell to a replacement unless certain promises are made in a coach is waiting scenario.  Assuming we see Frank back next year (which we probably will), he will have one year left on his contract, and how much longer could he realistically go given his health. Point being, it may be hard to convince a guy with options to come onboard without some sort of promise in place for when Frank retires.  I love Heffner as well, and I think he would've been a great HC here, but I think that ship has sailed.  He isn't that much younger than Frank, and he has a great thing going at Northwestern.  Unless he has a strong desire to be a HC before he retires, not sure it make sense for Big Bob to return.


In my mind, the thing that makes this harder is the fact that many feel the "coach in waiting" promise has already been made to Fein and that's why he came in the first place. Maybe that's not the case, but it will be hard to change that perception in the industry and even harder to come on as an assistant either on a staff with Fein or on a staff that has been together for a number of years and work along side them for a year and keep their trust/support when you get promoted and they don't. Think about that, you boss goes out and hires a guy to be his replacement when you have been working tirelessly to get to that point. Someone's ego is going to be hurt for sure. I'm sure Coach McFadden was just thrilled when he was not asked to take over the DC role after Loose left.

Edit - *Assuming that this is how it goes at the end of the year. I have no knowledge of anything at all, just discussing the issues with the hypothetical situation.


Excellent points.  So yes, staff changes that will make a large impact on the field are probably unlikely at this point, and we are kind of in a pickle.  The staff will probably remain roughly the same for as long as Frank is here, unless some of the guys we are discussing leave on their own.
Andy

NewXbo wrote:
Pards Rule wrote:
pardfan wrote:
official attendance was 7,108      didn't look like that many on the broadcast
that's a respectable number


Once again "attendance" is a farce. "Attendance" is tickets sold - and, help me here, given away? - NOT turnstiles churned....It should be the latter.


There were no turnstiles on Saturday so they have no idea how many actually came to the game. Like basketball, the statisticians make an estimate on the attendance. Since the City of Easton has a tax on the ticket sales, you would think they would have a better handle on it.


Re our crack security force and customer relations as told to me by folks at the scene:

Several people watching the game from the grassy hill at the Kirby end, some standing, some lounging, a man and woman eating popcorn lying on the grass. A yellow jacketed security guy comes over and tells them "The College" wants them to leave. Several protest and argue a bit regarding the reason/purpose/ridiculousness of the order.  The guy says "get hurt and you'll sue The College."  Chases everyone off.  The guy eating popcorn with his wife - a former NFL football coach watching his son play. Can't make this stuff up. Only at LC.
flyfisher

Andy wrote:
NewXbo wrote:
Pards Rule wrote:
pardfan wrote:
official attendance was 7,108      didn't look like that many on the broadcast
that's a respectable number


Once again "attendance" is a farce. "Attendance" is tickets sold - and, help me here, given away? - NOT turnstiles churned....It should be the latter.


There were no turnstiles on Saturday so they have no idea how many actually came to the game. Like basketball, the statisticians make an estimate on the attendance. Since the City of Easton has a tax on the ticket sales, you would think they would have a better handle on it.


Re our crack security force and customer relations as told to me by folks at the scene:

Several people watching the game from the grassy hill at the Kirby end, some standing, some lounging, a man and woman eating popcorn lying on the grass. A yellow jacketed security guy comes over and tells them "The College" wants them to leave. Several protest and argue a bit regarding the reason/purpose/ridiculousness of the order.  The guy says "get hurt and you'll sue The College."  Chases everyone off.  The guy eating popcorn with his wife - a former NFL football coach watching his son play. Can't make this stuff up. Only at LC.


Wonderful. He tries to stay away from the fans and not be bothered. he has a contract for 6 mil a year and we find a way to offend him.
flyfisher

LeopardBall10 wrote:
Is it just me or is this a bad repeat of a season we've all seen before?As bad as this season has been I haven't heard any comparisons to the 2 win 2010 season yet. In 2010 the team averaged 21 points per game and held opponents to 27, averaged 360 yds of offense and help opponents to 353.

From what I remember that team had an eerily similar rash of season ending injuries (mostly on the D-line and secondary as opposed to the O-line this year), similar coaching staff, and more wins at this point in the season. Major differences is that this current team has fewer bodies, has scholarships, and a slightly more difficult schedule
2010 OOC - Penn, Columbia (their 1 good year), Harvard, Princeton, Stoney Brook
2015 OCC - William and Mary, Delaware, Wagner, Princeton, Harvard

So is Lafayette really just having that much bad luck? I feel like I am hearing the same excuses year after year. The same records pile up year after year.

I'm sorry I am just rambling at this point. So frustrated by what I see at the top and no discernible changes made at all. Frank has been forced to make changes on his staff before. Is this another of those years? I hate to say it, but I don't think that any amount of non-competitive football will cause Frank to lose his job, but it is going to cost someone else theirs.


WE are all frustrated. this goes beyond bad luck. Some of the excuses are true but some are avoidable. Its gets old.
Quoitschamp

Bogus Megapardus wrote:
pardfan wrote:
flyfisher wrote:
Our rushing attack is pitiful. We are down to our 4th string center today. We lost the previous 3 to get injury. We can't run our two best running plays because the o-line struggles to execute the blocking scheme. We are very close to running out of o-linemen. We lost Kern today but no idea for how long. Last week we turned a 3rd string DT into the starting left guard, and he never even played offense in high school.

So what do you Vince Lombardi's out there suggest?


For starters, take your attitude and shove it.  You've got our money (through scholarship);  isn't that enough?


Pardfan, I don't think fly meant to offend.  Everyone here is an armchair coach or AD sometimes.  And we're all frustrated right now.  Some of us (including me) have been Pard football fans for ten, twenty, even thirty years or more.

This is a bad stretch and we all know it.  If it continues the college will take measures.  We all know that it takes a comparatively long time for changes to be made on College Hill, but change they do, eventually (i.e., Terry Mangan, Tammy Smith).

We have our opinions but none of us knows what's happening in that locker room right now (other than it's a very nice locker room thanks to some long-time supporters of Lafayette football).  Many of us have been in those locker rooms and we know those kids need our support as much as anything.


Mangan left on his own. Ask Rogalski. It is possible for someone to think there is a better place to be than College Hill Wink
Andy

Quoitschamp wrote:
Mangan left on his own. Ask Rogalski. It is possible for someone to think there is a better place to be than College Hill Wink


Mangin's 10-year PL record at LC was 10-51. His team's won 1 or 0  league games in an incredible eight seasons.  If in fact he wasn't fired that tells you all you need to know about LC athletics. There may be a better place, but there's no better place for job security.
LeopardBall10

Andy wrote:
Quoitschamp wrote:
Mangan left on his own. Ask Rogalski. It is possible for someone to think there is a better place to be than College Hill Wink


Mangin's 10-year PL record at LC was 10-51. His team's won 1 or 0  league games in an incredible eight seasons.  If in fact he wasn't fired that tells you all you need to know about LC athletics. There may be a better place, but there's no better place for job security.


+1,000,000,000,000
Lafalum

+1,000,000,000,000

???
BPard

Lafalum wrote:
+1,000,000,000,000

???
In Internet parlance, "+1" after a quote means "I agree."

LB10 must super-agree.

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