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bethlehempard

Is this as good as it gets?

Lafayette futility has become normal. This program is approaching two decades without consecutive winning seasons.
There is no improvement, no adjustment, no direction, no hope.
SixtyEighter

Complaints -Complaints. We rallied last night from down 22 to only lose by 17.When I turned the game on it was 22-5 and Klinewski hit a jumper to make it 22-7.That was with about 6 minutes left in the first half.It went down hill from there and when the deficit reached 22 I turned it off.
Kpard

We are in a bad place right now. Not a lot of experience, no depth, froshman have little confidence and are starting to look lost, and we are not shooting well.
Defend Klinewski and Lindner because there is no consistency after that.
FOH is in a tough spot, there is no where to turn. Not that it really matters, but, is Boykins done for the year?
ed65

Kpard wrote:
We are in a bad place right now. Not a lot of experience, no depth, froshman have little confidence and are starting to look lost, and we are not shooting well.
Defend Klinewski and Lindner because there is no consistency after that.
FOH is in a tough spot, there is no where to turn. Not that it really matters, but, is Boykins done for the year?


kpard: the situation you describe with the men's team sounds like the women's team except they don't yet have two players like Klinewski and Lindner.
Pard4Life

Basketball needs a sweeping change. Don't care how good FOH is tactically: you need to have the full package. He can't recruit consistently and we run the same formula out there each year. Lehigh committed to get better and look what happened: joke program that would win 10 games at best to consistent mid-major threat.
CHIP72

I've been a little critical of Fran O'Hanlon in the past (even though I like Frannie) because IMO the Leopards haven't had good enough teams over the last 10-12 years when they've had veteran squads.  But this year's team is very young, and probably should be expected to struggle.  I'd cut them a little slack right now.
seenalot

They are really young.  And, if this was the first time we'd been through this cycle I'd agree on a pass.   But next year the frosh will be a year older, Matt K will be a senior, who knows Monty might redshirt.  But then the reason/justification will be that we have a frosh point guard running Frans complicated offense.  Following year might be better, but then we will be without Matt.  Its a never ending cycle of missing at least one piece, and every 4th year or so we are above average, which quiets things down.  That cycle has gotten old and there is NO reason for it.  If other teams in conf. can be respectable to good year in and year out, why cant we?  Time to stop making excuses for it and look to change it.

I think Fran is a great guy, wonderful example of doing (most of) it right, class act (not a whiner like the self absorbed dolt in brown) and very good in-game coach.  But after 20 years I think the fire has died down and its time.
Kpard

seenalot wrote:
They are really young.  And, if this was the first time we'd been through this cycle I'd agree on a pass.   But next year the frosh will be a year older, Matt K will be a senior, who knows Monty might redshirt.  But then the reason/justification will be that we have a frosh point guard running Frans complicated offense.  Following year might be better, but then we will be without Matt.  Its a never ending cycle of missing at least one piece, and every 4th year or so we are above average, which quiets things down.  That cycle has gotten old and there is NO reason for it.  If other teams in conf. can be respectable to good year in and year out, why cant we?  Time to stop making excuses for it and look to change it.

I think Fran is a great guy, wonderful example of doing (most of) it right, class act (not a whiner like the self absorbed dolt in brown) and very good in-game coach.  But after 20 years I think the fire has died down and its time.


I think this is a great summation. With all the kids that leave each year, the consistency is lacking. In FOH's early years, it seemed like a reload, not a rebuild. I honestly thought scholarships would make it better, but, it hasn't.
I love Coach O, I love the style of play, but, maybe we don't have the right formula anymore.
seenalot

Think we are wayyyyy past maybe.   We get the same kind of players we were when we were without free rides.  Only difference is now we are paying for their education.  Model is broken and we simply refuse to deal with it.
Kpard

What is FOH's contract status? Does he have one more year after this?
Andy

Kpard wrote:
What is FOH's contract status? Does he have one more year after this?


Signed a 10 year deal in 2004. I haven't seen a release re the extension that's had him here since 2014.

Right now, losing 2 srs and with 2 recruits signed, we're set to play with 10 scholarship kids (again) next year. That is ridiculous.  Scouting continues per twitter and we know a recent offer or 2 have been made. The incoming PG by all accounts is outstanding. I don't know much about the C. We desperately need another impact recruit, and preferably another 2.
Kpard

Andy wrote:
Kpard wrote:
What is FOH's contract status? Does he have one more year after this?


Signed a 10 year deal in 2004. I haven't seen a release re the extension that's had him here since 2014.

Right now, losing 2 srs and with 2 recruits signed, we're set to play with 10 scholarship kids (again) next year. That is ridiculous.  Scouting continues per twitter and we know a recent offer or 2 have been made. The incoming PG by all accounts is outstanding. I don't know much about the C. We desperately need another impact recruit, and preferably another 2.


The incoming PG better be outstanding because the cupboard is bare and he's guaranteed a starting job.
We also need to recruit bigger kids or insist they bulk up when they get here. Navy beat us up physically and so will everyone else.
bethlehempard

Lafayette is No. 335 in Sagarin ratings today. Alabama A&M is last at No. 351.
It's hard to fall much more because of the bedrock provided by of the likes of Grambling, Presbyterian and Longwood.
No. 334 is VMI and No. 336 is St. Francis-NY (that win looms large).
The next league team is Colgate at 301; Dartmouth is No. 304.

Lafayette: a proud basketball tradition? No, the doormat of a bad league.

"Give us scholarships and we will compete with anybody!"
What a joke that is.

I hope the school appreciates the local fans who still come out. Very well put above about how every few years a good streak covers things up. Just as in football, but there is no building on it. Lafayette reverts to the mean or lower.

Still this is the PL and there are a few wins ahead. However the teams blowing out the Pards are themselves getting blown out by other league teams.

Imagine asking a coaching candidate: "Coach XXXXX, do you think rebounds are important in the game of basketball?"

If there is no change after this year, the current study will have been a waste of money.

P.S.: Pomeroy puts Lafayette at No. 339. Choose your poison.
leopard88

Lafayette beat Loyola.

Loyola beat Lehigh and Boston U.

Ergo, Lafayette is better than Lehigh and Boston U.
Lafalum

leopard88 wrote:
Lafayette beat Loyola.

Loyola beat Lehigh and Boston U.

Ergo, Lafayette is better than Lehigh and Boston U.



There is a job for you at go leopards
leopard88

Lafalum wrote:
leopard88 wrote:
Lafayette beat Loyola.

Loyola beat Lehigh and Boston U.

Ergo, Lafayette is better than Lehigh and Boston U.



There is a job for you at go leopards


Laughing
bethlehempard

CHIP72 wrote:
I've been a little critical of Fran O'Hanlon in the past (even though I like Frannie) because IMO the Leopards haven't had good enough teams over the last 10-12 years when they've had veteran squads.  But this year's team is very young, and probably should be expected to struggle.  I'd cut them a little slack right now.


The last good recruiting class was brought in during the 2010-11 season. As freshmen, Trist-Hinrichs-Ptasinski showed signs of the future, particularly in a win over St. Francis-NY early in the 2011-12 season. Flannigan was a contributor too.

Bryce Scott and later Nick Lindner joined them. Who's waiting in the wings now? Lafayette is a two-man team with other interchangeable players rotating in.

It's early to judge this freshman class, true, but it's not at that level. The other classes have already shown what they do and -- mostly -- don't have.

Six, seven years is a long time between good classes.
bethlehempard

Eight games each into the league schedule, both BB teams are in last place.
The men are 2-6 and tied with Army.
The women are 0-8 and no, are not tied with anybody. Not anybody in the league anyway.
The men haven't played Bucknell yet and the Bison appear to be the class of the league.
Both teams have shown some fight now and then but not much else.
njleopard

[quote="bethlehempard:59890"]Eight games each into the league schedule, both BB teams are in last place.
The men are 2-6 and tied with Army.
The women are 0-8 and no, are not tied with anybody. Not anybody in the league anyway.
The men haven't played Bucknell yet and the Bison appear to be the class of the league.
Both teams have shown some fight now and then but not much else.[/quote]

Is there any other school with a combined record worse than ours? Sad
bethlehempard

MBB: No. 331 in Sagarin ratings out of 351.
WBB: No. 320 out of 349.
Both teams at Alabama A&M, Mississippi Valley State, Florida A&M and Arkansas Pine Bluff are ranked lower. Maybe others. It's a depressing list.
Alabama A&M is a combined 1-29 and last in both lists.
That preseason pick of MBB at No. 340 seemed pessimistic. It wasn't.
pardfan

If MBB loses today, they are one loss (Army on Feb 1) from losing to every team in the league for the second year in a row.  If the women lose today (Loyola WBB is 4-4  in the League), they will have done it this season. (Certainly, it's possible to lose to every team and still be 9-9.  I don't imagine that happens too often.)

All this "lack of competitiveness" talk does, after all, have a basis in fact.

(Georgetown win kept LC football from losing to every team in the League two years in a row.)

Last year, WBB beat BU twice and American twice.  This year BU is 4-4 and American is 5-3 in the League.  We're 0-8 with no hint of a turnaround down the road.
bethlehempard

MBB: six wins (including Moravian)
WBB: one win.
There is a chance that the combined teams won't reach 10 wins.
The last single-digit combined season was 1994-95, when the women took three and the men nearly kept pace with two, for five total.

"Lafayette, a proud tradition of basketball excellence."

This is the Patriot League, so maybe there are a few wins left even though the men's squad has only two players who might get time on other teams, and the women are employing a strategy that is best described as "A riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."

On to next year ... on to next year ...

Go Pards!

PS: the volleyball team had as many PL wins as WBB and MBB combined.
They're really coming along!
NewXbo

Haters gonna hate.
pardfan

NewXbo wrote:
Haters gonna hate.


What I "hate" about this BB situation, New Xbozo, is the fact that Fran has--for at least two years now--fielded teams that could not/cannot compete successfully in the Patriot League.  I said a month before the beginning of LAST season that the cupboard was bare and that the only way we could be certain of wins was to go up against the University of Phoenix.  Remember that?  Well, here we are.
I have a problem with the following:
 1.  He can't or won't recruit AA's in an AA game.  Our team is an absolute embarrassment in that regard.  (It's like Oz without munchkins.)  It might take a little more effort to do it.  It might take a lot more effort; but, that FOH shrug that we get in every postgame interview is not gonna cut it on this issue.  Lehigh, our former athletic benchmark, has no problem recruiting AA's.  All of the other teams have AA's that play and AA's that don't play much.  Not LC under FOH.
 2.  He thinks, after this many years, he can tell us when he's done.  I say "no" to that.  We've seen what happens when programs--BB, FB-- coast and it's not pretty.
 The Garrett era has begun and no under-performing coaches in any sport are safe--even your buddy, FOH.
Andy

NewXbo wrote:
Haters gonna hate.


Great you're so hip. First it was "it is what it is" now you're like "haters gonna hate."  You're killin' me. And STOP CALLING ME BOI!  Xbozo. (I am  absolutely going to wear that out!)
BillS

Andy wrote:
NewXbo wrote:
Haters gonna hate.


Great you're so hip. First it was "it is what it is" now you're like "haters gonna hate."  You're killin' me. And STOP CALLING ME BOI!  Xbozo. (I am  absolutely going to wear that out!)
Fran is very good at recruiting complementary players but unfortunately basketball is a game that requires a few prime time players on the floor with the complementary players to win on a consistent basis! It's time for a change folkes and please don't call me a hater.
seenalot

The only thing ANYONE with any credibility on this board hates is losing consistently.  Particularly to peer schools with similar circumstances.  Coupled with the culture of losing it creates for the kids involved in sports and a school we all love and want to see succeed.

Period.
Kpard

seenalot wrote:
The only thing ANYONE with any credibility on this board hates is losing consistently.  Particularly to peer schools with similar circumstances.  Coupled with the culture of losing it creates for the kids involved in sports and a school we all love and want to see succeed.

Period.


Hear, hear. Spot on.

Two comments from FOH stick out to me. In this year's signing announcement he stated that we look for a certain type of kid and not all "fit" here. Last week in the second half outlook he tried to compare this froshman group to the Trist, Heinrichs's team as froshman.
Maybe FOH can only recruit a certain kid and likes the challenge of coaching them up as underdogs?
IDK but with scholarships I thought we'd be reloading not rebuilding every year. And keeping guys here instead of the steady stream of transferring out. The bench is short, the cupboard is almost bare, and we painted ourselves into a corner.
NewXbo

Call me what you want.  But let's look at the statistics. I'm surprised bethlehempard didn't list this.

The Patriot League was formed in 1991. The objective of the Patriot League teams is to win their conference playoff and advance to the NCAA tournament. The coaches will tell you they want to be playing their best basketball at the end of the season.

So lets look at the facts, the end of season status, the Patriot League Playoffs.

Year    Champion              Runner up

1991    Fordham               Holy Cross
1992    Fordham               Bucknell
1993    Holy Cross            Bucknell
1994    Navy                    Colgate
1995    Colgate                Navy
1996    Colgate                Holy Cross
1997    Navy                    Bucknell  
1998    Navy                    Lafayette
1999    Lafayette              Bucknell
2000    Lafayette              Navy
2001    Holy Cross            Navy
2002    Holy Cross            American
2003    Holy Cross            American
2004    Lehigh                  American
2005    Bucknell               Holy Cross
2006    Bucknell               Holy Cross
2007    Holy Cross            Bucknell
2008    American              Colgate
2009    American              Holy Cross
2010    Lehigh                  Lafayette
2011    Bucknell               Lafayette
2012    Lehigh                  Bucknell
2013    Bucknell               Lafayette
2014    American              Boston
2015    Lafayette              American
2016    Holy Cross            Lehigh

So, let's break it down this way, how many appearances in the championship game.

Team                       Championships         Runner Up
Holy Cross                       6                           5
Bucknell                          4                           6
Lafayette                        3                           4
American                        3                           4
Navy                              3                           3
Colgate                           2                          2
Lehigh                            3                           1
Fordham                         2                           0
Boston                            0                          1
Army                              0                          0


The statistics prove that there is NOT a dominant team in the Patriot League. Coaches build their team to win the Patriot League Championship and to advance to the NCAA Tournament. We have had five different winners in the last five years. It takes years for a coach to build a team that can win the Patriot League Tournament. And, it may only last for a year or two. Then they start over. So, if you expect a league championship and an NCCA Tournament bid, you should have gone to a ACC or Big 10 college.
seenalot

No one said dominant team and wasn't speaking only of basketball.  

Look at our record in the 5 season PRIOR to 16/17 and its a cumulative 69-90.  Didn't bother to look but do you think Lehigh, or Bucknell sport that kind of record?  Not counting Colgate as hoops is a distant second to hockey in the tundra - but count them if you want and see if that landscape really changes.  

Say whatever you want but those are our peer schools and I'm not even talking about football, mens lax, baseball, womens hoops....where the picture is worse.   That's what I HATE and there is no amount of lipstick that changes the look of that pig.

We have allowed a culture of applauding mediocrity and accepting worse to be created and THAT is what I hate for the kids, and for the alum who care.
Lafalum

seenalot wrote:
No one said dominant team and wasn't speaking only of basketball.  
 

Say whatever you want but those are our peer schools and I'm not even talking about football, mens lax, baseball, womens hoops....where the picture is worse.   That's what I HATE and there is no amount of lipstick that changes the look of that pig.

We have allowed a culture of applauding mediocrity and accepting worse to be created and THAT is what I hate for the kids, and for the alum who care.


Exactly, taking the last 4 or five years, we do not have a winning team in ANYTHING. Something is fundamentally wrong. Ergo the "study." If we get to the end of the study and there isn't a  SIGNIFICANT adjustment I am done. Garret not withstanding
bison137

If you look at results since most teams had scholarships (i.e. 2004-05) - and especially at regular season performance - it looks a lot different.   If you look at regular season results, there have been four dominant teams - American,  Bucknell, holy cross, and Lehigh.  If you go by tournament results only, then there are five, with LC joining the group.  

REGULAR SEASON RESULTS (1st place finishes, 2nd place finishes)

American 2 , 2
Army 0 , 0
Boston 1 , 0
Bucknell 6.5 , 2.5
Colgate 0 , 1
Holy Cross 1.5 , 2.5
Lafayette 0 , .5
Lehigh 3 , .5
Navy 0 , 1


TOURNAMENT RESULTS (1st place finishes, 2nd place)

American 3 , 1
Army 0 , 0
Boston 0 , 1
Bucknell 4 , 2
Colgate 0 , 1
Holy Cross 2 , 3
Lafayette 1 , 3
Lehigh 2 , 1
Navy 0 , 0

It's certainly true that the biggest goal is success in the tournament, but I think regular season results are much more relevant to how good a team is.  Since the league has gained more parity, the tournament has become more of a crapshoot - with far more upsets.  We could debate how much an upset win is due to great coaching and how much is due to hot shooting, cold shooting by the opponent, or just dumb luck - but none if it us provable.
bethlehempard

I don't care about runner-ups. I don't expect dominance.
I do expect respectability in the Patriot League.
This team is dreadful, has been for two years and mediocre for most of the past 15. There is nothing in the pipeline.
The current team has two players and six sixth men.
"Peer schools in similar circumstances" nails it. They can do it. Cur non?
Those peers are blowing this team out weekly. Every league win is an upset. Every playoff run in the 21st century is a surprise.  
Lafayette will probably go two decades -- Decades -- without consecutive winning seasons.
Ponder that.
Two decades.
Nothing is being built. Tradition has been destroyed.
Change is needed now.
Andy

Fran won a championship 2 years ago. No one seems to know his contract status. If he has 2 years left, you want to fire him?

Grentz is in her 2nd year. Outside of parents who don't like the treatment of their upperclasswomen players, who would judge her at this point? 2 years, 1 full recruiting cycle?

Men's soccer which I've criticized for consistently ppor scoring, seems to have had 2 real good classes in a row. Look at the transfer Bohn just brought in.

The focus should be on supported sports women's soccer and FH. I cant criticize results in men's lax if the poor guy gets 2 scholarships.
pardfan

Lafalum wrote:
seenalot wrote:
No one said dominant team and wasn't speaking only of basketball.  
 

Say whatever you want but those are our peer schools and I'm not even talking about football, mens lax, baseball, womens hoops....where the picture is worse.   That's what I HATE and there is no amount of lipstick that changes the look of that pig.

We have allowed a culture of applauding mediocrity and accepting worse to be created and THAT is what I hate for the kids, and for the alum who care.


Exactly, taking the last 4 or five years, we do not have a winning team in ANYTHING. Something is fundamentally wrong. Ergo the "study." If we get to the end of the study and there isn't a  SIGNIFICANT adjustment I am done. Garret not withstanding


IMO re-working the chain of command is not a significant adjustment and I fear that most will accept that as such.  FT, FOH, Grentz, Bruce...They are not "the only starfish in the sea."  We have to be extremely aggressive here.

The study is only a means to an end, Alison.  Don't forget that.
adcs2

FT, FOH, Grentz, Bruce ... Two of those four are on the committee. Are they under inspection? Can the committee be objective given the makeup?
Kpard

bethlehempard wrote:
I don't care about runner-ups. I don't expect dominance.
I do expect respectability in the Patriot League.
This team is dreadful, has been for two years and mediocre for most of the past 15. There is nothing in the pipeline.
The current team has two players and six sixth men.
"Peer schools in similar circumstances" nails it. They can do it. Cur non?
Those peers are blowing this team out weekly. Every league win is an upset. Every playoff run in the 21st century is a surprise.  
Lafayette will probably go two decades -- Decades -- without consecutive winning seasons.
Ponder that.
Two decades.
Nothing is being built. Tradition has been destroyed.
Change is needed now.


A few more statements from FOH that continually puzzle me.
"They are a very athletic team" - OK, why aren't we?
"We needed to play a near perfect game to win" - Seriously, for a league game? Yes, that's true because our talent level is so much lower.
Like I said previously, maybe FOH relishes the underdog tag!?
pardfan

adcs2 wrote:
FT, FOH, Grentz, Bruce ... Two of those four are on the committee. Are they under inspection? Can the committee be objective given the makeup?


You make an excellent point.  I guess the level of change I have sought may have been impossible from the moment the committee was announced.  Just don't like to see the College's reputation under siege like this.  (And I say that because I see athletic competitiveness having a tremendous impact on reputation--like it or not.)
bethlehempard

After a recent loss, the coach said, "We aren't going to outscore anybody. And we probably aren't going to out-defend anybody."
While I admire his candor, that's a problem as there are no special teams in basketball to make up for offensive and defensive shortcomings.
It's also disappointing to hear that the coach has no answers and has surrendered.  

I beg our on-air team to ask real questions.
Not mean probing ones, but questions.
Ask about defensive shifts. Ask if there is a plan for the next game. Ask about why somebody played more/fewer minutes. Ask who is improving or declining.
Ask anything! Keep it brief and ASK A QUESTION!
Don't utter a pointless 30-second ramble and then shove the mic toward the coach.
pardfan

I've always felt that Fran had all the makings of a big-time D-1 coach;  but, he lacked that one key ingredient--ambition.  That didn't hurt us on the front end of this relationship.  The Patriot League wasn't as strong--top to bottom-- as it is now.  These days, however, you recruit your butt off or your program dies.  Trouble is, that's not who he is.
Kpard

Only 3 home games left for us season ticket holding gluttons for punishment.
Kpard

pardfan wrote:
I've always felt that Fran had all the makings of a big-time D-1 coach;  but, he lacked that one key ingredient--ambition.  That didn't hurt us on the front end of this relationship.  The Patriot League wasn't as strong--top to bottom-- as it is now.  These days, however, you recruit your butt off or your program dies.  Trouble is, that's not who he is.


We are not being outcoached, we are being out recruited.

I also question not only the program's strength and conditioning, but, the entire college's athletics strength and conditioning. If you want to be D1, then you have to prepare D1.
We don't get rebounds because we get pushed around.
We don't get 50-50 balls because we get pushed around.
We don't get the ball to the rim because we get pushed around.
Kpard

The squawks got housed up in Wooster this afternoon. Maybe we aren't as bad as we think?
LC Fan

Yes we are.
bethlehempard

Lafayette has one D1 win over a team with a wining record, St. Peter's, and another over a .500 team, Loyola. Holy Cross is just under .500.
The six victims are a combined 57-96.
So no, not very good, but a 10-win season is still possible and that would be a step up from last year.

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