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       Lafayette Sports Fan Forum Forum Index -> Men's Basketball
bethlehempard

Lafayette's last 10 years versus Lehigh's decade

Since the start of the 2004-05 season Lafayette has been 126-169 overall and 60-84 in the league. Worse than I had expected. There have been no 20-win seasons and of course no NCAA or NIT appearances.
Lehigh is 174-135 over that same time (omitting the loss in the third-rate postseason tournament last year) and 81-63 in the league. They've tasted the postseason in a big way and could have made the Final 16.
That's the bottom line. Some may want to treat these like Cisco's earnings and adjust for events (apparently the financial collapse of 2008 only affected Lafayette?) and for individuals.
What it shows can't be explained away easily. The program has been faltering.
bethlehempard

The numbers aren't pretty. Without going into unnecessary detail we are clearly a lot closer to the bottom than to the top and that's only counting the core schools.
Some good teams and many fine individuals have been with us in that decade. The bottom line though is ugly. We claim to have a basketball tradition and I hav been lucky enough to witness some of the great moments such as wins over Notre Dame and then-ranked Rutgers.
But can Lafayette still pretend it has a basketball tradition?
bison137

Is it a fair to compare LU's scholarship teams to LC's non-scholarship teams?

It might be more indicative to look at the records since 2009-10, when FOH first had three legitimate scholarship classes on board (plus his first very late group of scholarship players).    Since then:

All games:  75-84
PL games:  37-37


Not great but not nearly as bad as the numbers including non-scholarship years.
Lafalum

Every team in the PL was at full scholarships  during this period and we weren't at full scholarships until 2010. Even the first year of scholarships we didn't get them until the spring which was useless since we couldn't recruit with them and could only add three per year.

Rothkopf and and our BOt nearly destroyed not only our basketball tradition, but our entire athletic program.

Now since 2010 there may be a case to be made, but that's when apples became apples so to speak. We all know what happened in 2008 with funding but I think that didn't hurt our basketball efforts.
bethlehempard

Maybe next year things will fall into place. The performance in the scholarship era has to improve. There have been some good moments this year.
"Next year."
ed65

The numbers are clear.  The pre-scholarship and post- scholarship numbers should be included in the next BoT Meeting.  Another way to look at this is to consider the number of PL Championships in say the last four years: 2 Field Hockey, 1 mens soccer, 1 football, 1 golf (or was that more than 4 years ago).  Maybe there are more but not many.

The state of the athletic program is (as has been cited often on this board): it is ok to lose.  That simply is not satisfactory in any way of measuring the athletic program.  Yes, we have lots of scholar athletetes but so do all the othe core PL School.

In my mind, we have a D-1 Program - sort of.  There are lots of ways to fix this but I don't think the BoT, the Admin and the faculty really care (with a few exceptions).  It is time for Alums to step up and demand more success from the athletic program.  That includes more aggressive funding from alums, pressure on the BoT and making sure Alison Byerly understands that she is at a school where winning is important.  Personally, I don't give a damn what the faculting thinks, and I don't think they should get a vote in this.

To be continued.
Lafalum

ed65 wrote:
The numbers are clear.  The pre-scholarship and post- scholarship numbers should be included in the next BoT Meeting.  Another way to look at this is to consider the number of PL Championships in say the last four years: 2 Field Hockey, 1 mens soccer, 1 football, 1 golf (or was that more than 4 years ago).  Maybe there are more but not many.

The state of the athletic program is (as has been cited often on this board): it is ok to lose.  That simply is not satisfactory in any way of measuring the athletic program.  Yes, we have lots of scholar athletetes but so do all the othe core PL School.

In my mind, we have a D-1 Program - sort of.  There are lots of ways to fix this but I don't think the BoT, the Admin and the faculty really care (with a few exceptions).  It is time for Alums to step up and demand more success from the athletic program.  That includes more aggressive funding from alums, pressure on the BoT and making sure Alison Byerly understands that she is at a school where winning is important.  Personally, I don't give a damn what the faculting thinks, and I don't think they should get a vote in this.

To be continued.


Hooray ed 65 !!!!!  You've hit on the issues!! Administrators must demand excellence. I sometimes wonder who the institution is being run for. The employees seem to be more interested in protecting one another and using student and alumni money to do it. Every morning every employee ( yes faculty are employees)  should ask themselves whose money am I playing with and am I giving them value for their tuition or donations!
bethlehempard

Is this really about the administration? The scholarships are there. The facility is there. The team was 6-12 in the league and was swept by Army and Colgate. COLGATE!
Some of the worst Lafayette basketball in recent memory was played against Army (game one), Seton Hall (boys against men) and Boston.
The Tavani extension might be pinned on the administration. I don't understand the need for it.
This basketball team's failures and successes are its own.
Again ... Swept by COLGATE.
pards123

bethlehempard wrote:
Is this really about the administration? The scholarships are there. The facility is there. The team was 6-12 in the league and was swept by Army and Colgate. COLGATE!
Some of the worst Lafayette basketball in recent memory was played against Army (game one), Seton Hall (boys against men) and Boston.
The Tavani extension might be pinned on the administration. I don't understand the need for it.
This basketball team's failures and successes are its own.
Again ... Swept by COLGATE.


Well you asked about the last decade. I would say yes, the last decade is about the administration. This year in particular, I would say no, it is not about the administration. We should be better than 9th place.
Lafalum

pards123 wrote:
bethlehempard wrote:
Is this really about the administration? The scholarships are there. The facility is there. The team was 6-12 in the league and was swept by Army and Colgate. COLGATE!
Some of the worst Lafayette basketball in recent memory was played against Army (game one), Seton Hall (boys against men) and Boston.
The Tavani extension might be pinned on the administration. I don't understand the need for it.
This basketball team's failures and successes are its own.
Again ... Swept by COLGATE.


Well you asked about the last decade. I would say yes, the last decade is about the administration. This year in particular, I would say no, it is not about the administration. We should be better than 9th place.


Yes it is about an administration and program that can not boast of one winning record from its athletic teams.That is extraordinary. So who should be held accountable and how should that happen??

A.Byerly has stated our programs are healthy because we get good spirited crowds. Is that the right definition of a good program?? Would she accept a professor that can not demonstrate good results in classroom?? Yes, we have good facilities, scholarships, and there is support, but we are losers right now in every sport. What needs to be done to turn this around or who do we need in what position??
Pard4Life

It's tiring to keep talking about this.

We all know how AR sabotaged basketball but at this point, I think the recruiting is on FOH's shoulders.  Though Lehigh made a concentrated effort to improve and look what happened... CJ was a needle in a haystack.  Can't say if our assistants are not paid well or not but hasn't FOH had the same assistants for the past several years? I am not surprised we were swept by Colgate since they have a decent team and a talented young coach... the squad played well in the OOC portion and it was a bit surprising to see them struggle in PL play.

Football was also sabotaged but things have been righted.  Tavani's flaws were only manifested with a weaker team before Drew Reed saved him.  We will get steadily better.

FH seems to have been righted a few years ago.

The rest of the sports program seems to be a mess though... frankly it has been a mess ever since we joined the PL... outside of men's soccer (don't know enough there) and women's lax, which really collapsed after 2002.  The funny thing is being in the Patriot League killed our sports program.  Being in the PL was merely an excuse not to fund anything, though that attitude seems to have changed.  Problem is that it is hard to transform a loser.
carney2

bethlehempard wrote:
This basketball team's failures and successes are its own.


Not much that we haven't heard over and over in this thread - except taking ownership of a dismal season.  The 2013-2014 men's basketball team grades out at an F unless they have a rabbit in their hat and can pull it out over the next two weeks.  The only bright spot is that they're all back and get a rarity in the world of college sports - a re-do.
carney2

Pard4Life wrote:
the Patriot League killed our sports program.


And you thought this line belonged to Sader87.  

We coulda been in the Centennial Conference.
Lafalum

carney2 wrote:
bethlehempard wrote:
This basketball team's failures and successes are its own.


Not much that we haven't heard over and over in this thread - except taking ownership of a dismal season.  The 2013-2014 men's basketball team grades out at an F unless they have a rabbit in their hat and can pull it out over the next two weeks.  The only bright spot is that they're all back and get a rarity in the world of college sports - a re-do.


You reap what you sow and we have one third team all PL player ( Heinrichs) and one all freshman team ( Linder). As a fan I have to say Joey P deserves a mention. He gave 100 pct all the time. But our record led to only one selection and a third team at that.
Pard4Life

carney2 wrote:
Pard4Life wrote:
the Patriot League killed our sports program.


And you thought this line belonged to Sader87.  

We coulda been in the Centennial Conference.


Lol... I am not joking... the across the board performance in all of our programs speaks for itself.  It's simply more than coincidental.  All of our programs took a nose-dive except the Ann Gold Field Hockey/W Lax teams.
bison137

Pard4Life wrote:
carney2 wrote:
Pard4Life wrote:
the Patriot League killed our sports program.


And you thought this line belonged to Sader87.  

We coulda been in the Centennial Conference.


Lol... I am not joking... the across the board performance in all of our programs speaks for itself.  It's simply more than coincidental.  All of our programs took a nose-dive except the Ann Gold Field Hockey/W Lax teams.



Other than field hockey, women's lax, and men's soccer, I don't think any of the teams were very strong when the PL first started.
bethlehempard

We can't blame the league. Where else would we play? Other schools find a way to succeed. We can too.
Tavani and O'Hanlon are both big figures in Lafayette sports history and both have brought us some great wins.  
O'Hanlon's record: 268-294.
Tavani: 81-90.
Each has won about 47 percent and neither has won in the post-season. Tavani was close a couple times.
Yet while slamming Tavani is a hobby among fans, criticism of the basketball program is muted.
I'm an O'Hanlon fan. I'm a Lafayette fan and I would like to see some recruits who will help us get back to respectability.
This team can beat Loyola tonight. A play-in win would help right away.
Kpard

http://www.goleopards.com/genrel/021014aab.html

This gives you a good idea of Coach O's perspective on the program, recruiting, etc.
ed65

Ok, how about this:  We could create a website similar to the pro-fraternity site that points out the dismal state of the overall athletic program.  It could include a lot of the suggestions made on the board.  The first reaction from the Admin or the AD would probably be to suggest we work through the Maroon Club.  I would reject that categorically.  Cammie Linville does a great job with the club but it is, in effect, controlled by the college and it is not at all responsive to those of us who want to see a winning culture developed in athletics.  In fact, I believe the Maroon Club has been co-opted by the college and spends most of its time on the Leadership Academy (a good idea) and the Hall of Fame.

Or we coud demand a meeting with Byerly to voice our unhappiness and make suggestions.

All this brings back my  deep-seated anger with the BoT.  It's time for a major shakeup with that group.
NewXbo

For every dollar the Maroon Club generates thats one less dollar the administration has to allocate to athletics.
ed65

NewXbo wrote:
For every dollar the Maroon Club generates thats one less dollar the administration has to allocate to athletics.


Fair point, XBO.
Lafalum

ed65 wrote:
NewXbo wrote:
For every dollar the Maroon Club generates thats one less dollar the administration has to allocate to athletics.


Fair point, XBO.


I would disagree with Newxbo if they didn't budget for Maroon Club dollars. Then it would be over and above what the college would have spent. He has a point.
ed65

My appologies to Cammie Linville.  It is her Mom who is head of the Maroon Club.
carney2

ed65 wrote:
Ok, how about this:  We could create a website similar to the pro-fraternity site that points out the dismal state of the overall athletic program.  It could include a lot of the suggestions made on the board.  The first reaction from the Admin or the AD would probably be to suggest we work through the Maroon Club.  I would reject that categorically.  Cammie Linville does a great job with the club but it is, in effect, controlled by the college and it is not at all responsive to those of us who want to see a winning culture developed in athletics.  In fact, I believe the Maroon Club has been co-opted by the college and spends most of its time on the Leadership Academy (a good idea) and the Hall of Fame.

Or we coud demand a meeting with Byerly to voice our unhappiness and make suggestions.

All this brings back my  deep-seated anger with the BoT.  It's time for a major shakeup with that group.


Exactly who is this "we" you keep talking about?  Who is "we's" leader or leadership group?  Under what banner does "we" get an audience with Byerly and/or other exalted figures in the Lafayette hierarchy?  Where and how does "we" accumulate statistics and numbers to establish both the quantity and depth of its support - its bona fides so to speak?  Who decides on "we's" objectives and gets them into the public eye?

Obviously "we" needs some work.
Long Time Fan

carney2 wrote:
bethlehempard wrote:
This basketball team's failures and successes are its own.


Not much that we haven't heard over and over in this thread - except taking ownership of a dismal season.  The 2013-2014 men's basketball team grades out at an F unless they have a rabbit in their hat and can pull it out over the next two weeks.  The only bright spot is that they're all back and get a rarity in the world of college sports - a re-do.


Not sure if this is a bright spot.  Should we expect that the same team that couldn't defend this season will defend next season?  Should we expect that the same team that struggled to rebound the ball this season will hit the boards next season?  Should we expect that the same team that had no shows against Seton Hall, Army (home), Bucknell (home), Met College (road), Colgate (road) will show up when scheduled next season?  
I guess we'll just hope for it.
ed65

carney2 wrote:
ed65 wrote:
Ok, how about this:  We could create a website similar to the pro-fraternity site that points out the dismal state of the overall athletic program.  It could include a lot of the suggestions made on the board.  The first reaction from the Admin or the AD would probably be to suggest we work through the Maroon Club.  I would reject that categorically.  Cammie Linville does a great job with the club but it is, in effect, controlled by the college and it is not at all responsive to those of us who want to see a winning culture developed in athletics.  In fact, I believe the Maroon Club has been co-opted by the college and spends most of its time on the Leadership Academy (a good idea) and the Hall of Fame.

Or we coud demand a meeting with Byerly to voice our unhappiness and make suggestions.

I don't have a clue what you are talking about Carney.  Sorry.

All this brings back my  deep-seated anger with the BoT.  It's time for a major shakeup with that group.


Exactly who is this "we" you keep talking about?  Who is "we's" leader or leadership group?  Under what banner does "we" get an audience with Byerly and/or other exalted figures in the Lafayette hierarchy?  Where and how does "we" accumulate statistics and numbers to establish both the quantity and depth of its support - its bona fides so to speak?  Who decides on "we's" objectives and gets them into the public eye?

Obviously "we" needs some work.
ed65

ed65 wrote:
carney2 wrote:
ed65 wrote:
Ok, how about this:  We could create a website similar to the pro-fraternity site that points out the dismal state of the overall athletic program.  It could include a lot of the suggestions made on the board.  The first reaction from the Admin or the AD would probably be to suggest we work through the Maroon Club.  I would reject that categorically.  Cammie Linville does a great job with the club but it is, in effect, controlled by the college and it is not at all responsive to those of us who want to see a winning culture developed in athletics.  In fact, I believe the Maroon Club has been co-opted by the college and spends most of its time on the Leadership Academy (a good idea) and the Hall of Fame.

Or we coud demand a meeting with Byerly to voice our unhappiness and make suggestions.

I don't have a clue what you are talking about Carney.  Sorry.

All this brings back my  deep-seated anger with the BoT.  It's time for a major shakeup with that group.


Exactly who is this "we" you keep talking about?  Who is "we's" leader or leadership group?  Under what banner does "we" get an audience with Byerly and/or other exalted figures in the Lafayette hierarchy?  Where and how does "we" accumulate statistics and numbers to establish both the quantity and depth of its support - its bona fides so to speak?  Who decides on "we's" objectives and gets them into the public eye?

Obviously "we" needs some work.


Just trying to make some suggestions Carney.  Sorry if it offends you.  I would think you are as frustrated as any of us - with our Alma Mater's cavalier attitude toward athletics.

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