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Lafalum

New season same results

We are now into the winter season and we are seeing the same results. If things continue as it has started it looks like we will not have a winning team at Lafayette by the time Lacrosse and Baseball open up. Is there  something more generic going on?? Lack of overall funding?  Problems in our approach to  recruiting? Lack of accountability in our coaching staff?? It's starting to look to me that there might be an overall issue at work somewhere.
Xboreturns

I think its a "cultural issue" within the college. There is no expectation to win, just compete. That doesn't mean the coaches don't want to win.  I'm sure they do.

We changed the women's basketball coach but we still can't compete within our league. Why not? Bad hire? Not enough resources? No one cares?

I do not like the hiring process. I believe it should be the AD's decision and not a committee. Look at the mess we have with softball.

You cannot expect every team or any team to be the league champion every year. Sports like basketball can be impacted by a single player, like CJ. You don't get a player like that often. You need to look at the body of work. A championship every four years would be ideal. Or even a team being in the top three on a consistent basis.

Also, it does not appear that all the teams can be properly funded. I do not favor dropping sports. Remember, the sport is important to the athlete who plays that sport. I believe that we need to decide what our "feature sports" are and make sure they have the resources to compete for a championship.

The remaining teams should be allowed to continue as they are important to the participants and will result in lifelong friendships, fond memories, and a positive opinion of the college experience.
Lafalum

What should be our featured sports?

My picks

Football - You have to because its in our DNA (Lafayette/Lehigh, big crowds,and the culture)
M/W basketball- same reasons as above and the chance to play on a large stage occasionally in the NCAA….relatively small investment compared to football
Field Hockey- history, geographical position in the Delaware and Lehigh Valley demonstrated ability to do it with national impact.
Women's Lacrosse- same reasons as above
Men's lacrosse would need scholarship support and I don't see a possibility for it given our title IX issues and budget constraints.
Baseball- strong alumni support  and history, however it is a dying sport in the NE, it would be very difficult to succeed on a national basis

that leaves perhaps m/w soccer- it is played nationally and could attract students but our chances to succeed are limited it appears.
All the others are window dressing

Once you start with football and its 100 or so spots balance means Women's FH and Lacrosse  and the two basketball teams. Baseball and Men's Lacrosse is a push and my heart is there!!
pards123

I know you have to draw the line somewhere, but I don't think you can make the decision to give up on baseball or MLAX. Both sports are growing. I hear you on baseball in the northeast, but with ESPN going all in and televising/streaming every tournament game, I don't think we should be willing to give up on that. The same goes for MLAX and it's continued growing popularity.
carney2

Lafalum wrote:
What should be our featured sports?


FOOTBALL - A tradition and the athletic life's blood of the College.

MEN'S AND WOMEN'S BASKETBALL - A real head scratcher.  Hoops takes the fewest quality bodies to be seriously competitive.  It gives you real bang for your buck in terms of PR and visibility if done right.  Yet we continue to ditz along with same-old, same-old.  Whatever we've accomplished in the past decade has been all O'Hanlon, smoke and mirrors.  Why isn't this a top of the heap priority a la Bucknell?!!!

WOMEN'S FIELD HOCKEY AND LACROSSE - Agreed.  Title IX dictates that something must be done to "balance" the huge number of bodies required for football.  

MEN'S LACROSSE - I'm not a fan, but it appears to be a comer.

That's it!  

Xbo is not in favor of dropping sports.  I couldn't disagree more.  The last time I looked, the University of Texas maintained only the NCAA minimum number of sports to qualify for D-1 status.  I think that number is 16.  Why?  Because they know that in their world it's football, football, and football.  Why screw around with things that don't matter.  Xbo says we should consider that the participants have good times and camaraderie and that is enough.  This is D-1 and that kind of thinking has no place.  It's a waste of limited resources and causes all important focus to be shifted.  Since it does nothing to counter losing without end, it fosters exactly that -  with the aura and attitude that accompanies it.
pards123

carney2 wrote:
Lafalum wrote:
What should be our featured sports?


FOOTBALL - A tradition and the athletic life's blood of the College.

MEN'S AND WOMEN'S BASKETBALL - A real head scratcher.  Hoops takes the fewest quality bodies to be seriously competitive.  It gives you real bang for your buck in terms of PR and visibility if done right.  Yet we continue to ditz along with same-old, same-old.  Whatever we've accomplished in the past decade has been all O'Hanlon, smoke and mirrors.  Why isn't this a top of the heap priority a la Bucknell?!!!

WOMEN'S FIELD HOCKEY AND LACROSSE - Agreed.  Title IX dictates that something must be done to "balance" the huge number of bodies required for football.  

MEN'S LACROSSE - I'm not a fan, but it appears to be a comer.

That's it!  

Xbo is not in favor of dropping sports.  I couldn't disagree more.  The last time I looked, the University of Texas maintained only the NCAA minimum number of sports to qualify for D-1 status.  I think that number is 16.  Why?  Because they know that in their world it's football, football, and football.  Why screw around with things that don't matter.  Xbo says we should consider that the participants have good times and camaraderie and that is enough.  This is D-1 and that kind of thinking has no place.  It's a waste of limited resources and causes all important focus to be shifted.  Since it does nothing to counter losing without end, it fosters exactly that -  with the aura and attitude that accompanies it.


I can tell you I never would have gone to Lafayette if they did not offer my sport. Some of these sports wouldn't take much to turn things around. A competent athletic department and legitimate support from the top of the college down would be a good start.

Xbo is right, non major sports do offer lasting benefits to those who participant in them. There is no reason why we shouldn't be able to be legitimately competitive in the minor sports.
carney2

pards123 wrote:
I can tell you I never would have gone to Lafayette if they did not offer my sport. Some of these sports wouldn't take much to turn things around. A competent athletic department and legitimate support from the top of the college down would be a good start.

Xbo is right, non major sports do offer lasting benefits to those who participant in them. There is no reason why we shouldn't be able to be legitimately competitive in the minor sports.


I think you have unintentionally made my point for me.  Because an individual participant receives "lasting benefits" it is ipso facto worth all of the resources that the College pours into it.  I say again, this is D-1 and that is not enough - not nearly enough.  "Student activities" are found at D-3.

You also say that you would have gone elsewhere if Lafayette did not offer your sport.  That, unfortunately, is just the way it is.  I'm sure we have lost a lot of outstanding kids over the years because we don't offer water polo or they couldn't participate in intercollegiate ski jumping - if there is such a thing.

As I said in my earlier post, I'm all for paring down and getting rid of the crap.  If the institution isn't willing to truly support an activity at the required level it should be sent packing.  FOCUS on the things that matter.  FOCUS on the things that will benefit the institution.
flyfisher

I realize I am new but it is obvious there is and has been a cultural issue. I don't know if expectations are set high enough and if there is enough accountability. I can't fairly comment to say if enough resources are committed to each sport.

I will give you one small observation. When you go to the Lafayette college home page on the website you don't even see a link across the top for athletics. You  see Academics, Admissions, After Graduation, Tuition and Aid, and Campus Life. No mention of athletics.  You have to click on Campus Life and then drill down another click for activities. That is my point. And even after you do that It's almost like the college views athletics as nothing more than a student activity. Go look at the website. Athletics are grouped in with About Easton, Arts, Traditions, Community Impact,  Student Clubs, Intramurals, and one titled Diverse Community Experience. It truly gives the impression that Athletics is an afterthought.

All this may seem like nothing to you guys but imagine the impression this gives a potential recruit. It quickly caught our attention. You go to the College web page and you have to search for Athletics. You start asking yourself if the school has athletics. So you check schedules to see who we play and realize it is in the Patriot League. Keep in mind, not everyone is from the Northeast. I knew a lot about Lafayette but there are still many people in the south that have no idea where Lafayette is and those that think they do think it is in Louisiana. Even this Christmas break my son would tell people where he was and they would say, "Rajun Cajuns".  It gives the impression that athletics is not important. Now granted, we don't want to go the direction of many D1's like the mess at UNC now. Fake classes, bogus majors just to keep athletes eligible. We don't want to go that route but it really seems we have erred to far the other way. Some here may blow it off but that was a stupid stunt the new President pulled with the birthday of the Marquis and doing this during the middle of a football game. A high school would not pull that stunt. Do it a half time but during the game? Geez.

Don't expect everyone to agree with my opinions. Just the first impressions of someone new. I stand by my opinion though. It's a bigger culture issue. For athletics to grow and improve it has to become important and have some focus and programs have to be held accountable. It's not all about finances.
Lafalum

flyfisher wrote:
I realize I am new but it is obvious there is and has been a cultural issue. I don't know if expectations are set high enough and if there is enough accountability. I can't fairly comment to say if enough resources are committed to each sport.

I will give you one small observation. When you go to the Lafayette college home page on the website you don't even see a link across the top for athletics. You  see Academics, Admissions, After Graduation, Tuition and Aid, and Campus Life. No mention of athletics.  You have to click on Campus Life and then drill down another click for activities. That is my point. And even after you do that It's almost like the college views athletics as nothing more than a student activity. Go look at the website. Athletics are grouped in with About Easton, Arts, Traditions, Community Impact,  Student Clubs, Intramurals, and one titled Diverse Community Experience. It truly gives the impression that Athletics is an afterthought.

All this may seem like nothing to you guys but imagine the impression this gives a potential recruit. It quickly caught our attention. You go to the College web page and you have to search for Athletics. You start asking yourself if the school has athletics. So you check schedules to see who we play and realize it is in the Patriot League. Keep in mind, not everyone is from the Northeast. I knew a lot about Lafayette but there are still many people in the south that have no idea where Lafayette is and those that think they do think it is in Louisiana. Even this Christmas break my son would tell people where he was and they would say, "Rajun Cajuns".  It gives the impression that athletics is not important. Now granted, we don't want to go the direction of many D1's like the mess at UNC now. Fake classes, bogus majors just to keep athletes eligible. We don't want to go that route but it really seems we have erred to far the other way. Some here may blow it off but that was a stupid stunt the new President pulled with the birthday of the Marquis and doing this during the middle of a football game. A high school would not pull that stunt. Do it a half time but during the game? Geez.

Don't expect everyone to agree with my opinions. Just the first impressions of someone new. I stand by my opinion though. It's a bigger culture issue. For athletics to grow and improve it has to become important and have some focus and programs have to be held accountable. It's not all about finances.


I actually agree and would add the following. We spend too much effort defending our posture of " a liberal arts college." According to recent polls only 5% of the high school population want to attend a liberal arts college. Plus many people would confuse liberal arts with division 3. We ARE more than a traditional liberal arts college and we should be selling that rather then defending the liberal arts college moniker. The symposium last year ( which was NOT attended by ANY  Patriot League schools) probably did not help. Get off the liberal arts label and describe all the good things we do instead. We have great engineering , economics (why not business?), neuroscience, biology ( why not an education major?) and division one sports.
If 5 % of the high school population seek to attend liberal arts colleges how many true division one athletes seek one as well….10%?????? I actually believe its part of the problem at Holy Cross as well. It doesn't seem to be a problem at Lehigh, Bucknell, Colgate, the service academies, American, BU and Loyola. We need to rethink how we position ourselves in the marketplace not only for reasons athletic but for the whole institution.

We are not F and M, Triniity, Amherst or Haverford and we should distinguish ourselves!!?
flyfisher

Lafalum wrote:
flyfisher wrote:
I realize I am new but it is obvious there is and has been a cultural issue. I don't know if expectations are set high enough and if there is enough accountability. I can't fairly comment to say if enough resources are committed to each sport.

I will give you one small observation. When you go to the Lafayette college home page on the website you don't even see a link across the top for athletics. You  see Academics, Admissions, After Graduation, Tuition and Aid, and Campus Life. No mention of athletics.  You have to click on Campus Life and then drill down another click for activities. That is my point. And even after you do that It's almost like the college views athletics as nothing more than a student activity. Go look at the website. Athletics are grouped in with About Easton, Arts, Traditions, Community Impact,  Student Clubs, Intramurals, and one titled Diverse Community Experience. It truly gives the impression that Athletics is an afterthought.

All this may seem like nothing to you guys but imagine the impression this gives a potential recruit. It quickly caught our attention. You go to the College web page and you have to search for Athletics. You start asking yourself if the school has athletics. So you check schedules to see who we play and realize it is in the Patriot League. Keep in mind, not everyone is from the Northeast. I knew a lot about Lafayette but there are still many people in the south that have no idea where Lafayette is and those that think they do think it is in Louisiana. Even this Christmas break my son would tell people where he was and they would say, "Rajun Cajuns".  It gives the impression that athletics is not important. Now granted, we don't want to go the direction of many D1's like the mess at UNC now. Fake classes, bogus majors just to keep athletes eligible. We don't want to go that route but it really seems we have erred to far the other way. Some here may blow it off but that was a stupid stunt the new President pulled with the birthday of the Marquis and doing this during the middle of a football game. A high school would not pull that stunt. Do it a half time but during the game? Geez.

Don't expect everyone to agree with my opinions. Just the first impressions of someone new. I stand by my opinion though. It's a bigger culture issue. For athletics to grow and improve it has to become important and have some focus and programs have to be held accountable. It's not all about finances.


I actually agree and would add the following. We spend too much effort defending our posture of " a liberal arts college." According to recent polls only 5% of the high school population want to attend a liberal arts college. Plus many people would confuse liberal arts with division 3. We ARE more than a traditional liberal arts college and we should be selling that rather then defending the liberal arts college moniker. The symposium last year ( which was NOT attended by ANY  Patriot League schools) probably did not help. Get off the liberal arts label and describe all the good things we do instead. We have great engineering , economics (why not business?), neuroscience, biology ( why not an education major?) and division one sports.
If 5 % of the high school population seek to attend liberal arts colleges how many true division one athletes seek one as well….10%?????? I actually believe its part of the problem at Holy Cross as well. It doesn't seem to be a problem at Lehigh, Bucknell, Colgate, the service academies, American, BU and Loyola. We need to rethink how we position ourselves in the marketplace not only for reasons athletic but for the whole institution.

We are not F and M, Triniity, Amherst or Haverford and we should distinguish ourselves!!?


Agree Lafalum. No disrespect but not as many kids want to major in a basic liberal arts degree. Doesn't have to be engineering but there are other options. I am a little surprised Lafayette has not grown its business school. Business, Finance, Accounting.

But back to my previous point. Go to our school website. You have to work to get to the Athletics page. It sends a message. Take a look at the topics we are grouped with. You don't see that from Lehigh and Bucknell, or any other Patriot League school. Every other Patriot League school has Athletics right on the school home page. They all have athletics or sports right there on their home page. We are the only school that does not. What does that tell you? Sends a message that it is not important.
TheRock90

The college is run by the Marketing Department.
flyfisher

TheRock90 wrote:
The college is run by the Marketing Department.


If so then they are marketing the wrong things.
DaveR

flyfisher wrote:

But back to my previous point. Go to our school website. You have to work to get to the Athletics page. It sends a message. Take a look at the topics we are grouped with. You don't see that from Lehigh and Bucknell, or any other Patriot League school. Every other Patriot League school has Athletics right on the school home page. They all have athletics or sports right there on their home page. We are the only school that does not. What does that tell you? Sends a message that it is not important.

The link to 'goleopards.com' is at the bottom of the college's home page.  Granted, not the most logical place to look, but you don't have to 'drill down'.
Leopard Loyalist

Lafalum wrote:
( why not an education major?)


As an undergrad major, education is highly suspect. Albany, for example, has  a robust School of Ed, but no undergraduate major.

We seem to forget that the liberal arts moniker should really be "liberal arts and sciences." As was pointed out, Bucknell and Colgate don't seem to be troubled by this--perhaps because they have some graduate programs (?)
flyfisher

DaveR wrote:
flyfisher wrote:

But back to my previous point. Go to our school website. You have to work to get to the Athletics page. It sends a message. Take a look at the topics we are grouped with. You don't see that from Lehigh and Bucknell, or any other Patriot League school. Every other Patriot League school has Athletics right on the school home page. They all have athletics or sports right there on their home page. We are the only school that does not. What does that tell you? Sends a message that it is not important.

The link to 'goleopards.com' is at the bottom of the college's home page.  Granted, not the most logical place to look, but you don't have to 'drill down'.


True. Assuming you know what that is. A kid logs on they are looking Athletics. That is assuming they even know the mascot is a Leopard. Like I mentioned, every other Patriot League school seems to be able to figure it out. Just a thought. No hard feelings.
Lafalum

Leopard Loyalist wrote:
Lafalum wrote:
( why not an education major?)


As an undergrad major, education is highly suspect. Albany, for example, has  a robust School of Ed, but no undergraduate major.

We seem to forget that the liberal arts moniker should really be "liberal arts and sciences." As was pointed out, Bucknell and Colgate don't seem to be troubled by this--perhaps because they have some graduate programs (?)


Anyone that aspired to be a teacher must take classes away from Lafayette.
That is absurd. It doesn't happen at Lehigh and probably not bucknell or the  many of the other schools in the PL/
BillS

Maybe I got lucky but it took me 5 seconds to find the athletics linc on lafayette.edu.
ed65

This is a timely discussion since it deals with the future and how to change the culture of mediocrity that chararacterizes LC athletics.   The new President has formed at least two committees: one to make recommendations about the cirriculum (as I understand it) and one to deal with the size of the school.  Both could affect athletics positively and negatively, needless to say.  If there are ways that contributors to this board can speak to members of those committees to promote the need to change the culture down at Kirby, it probably is a good idea.  

The "Marketing Dept." likes to celebrate the academic achievements of LC Athletes which is fine but I think celebrating wins and championships is just as good if not better.  

The robust sales of tickets to the 150th Lehigh Game may be the best thing to happen with LC Athletics.  I hope the Admin, BOD and Faculty are listening.
flyfisher

BillS wrote:
Maybe I got lucky but it took me 5 seconds to find the athletics linc on lafayette.edu.


Had my son try it without telling him where to look. He typed in the search bar and after two incorrect clicks found it in 32 seconds. Then I told him to find it without typing in the search window. He started on the left and clicked on ever tab except tuition and then he found it. Took 1:08.

Then I asked two high school kids that are seniors going through recruiting as well as the head football coach at get high school. Neither was allowed to watch the other. Both kids were well over 1 minute. I think the football coach is still looking. He just quit. They all searched like they would search on any other schools site. Their point was the same and they all asked the same question. "Why is athletics not on the front page?" Not everyone thinks to scroll to the bottom of the page. Most people look where every other school has their athletic link. At the top of the page, where it should be.

I understand celebrating academic achievement of our athletes. My oldest will graduate academic all-conference. And I could not be happier. Led the team in tackles his last year, not one single bad snap in 4 years  respectable grades. I love that we celebrate academic achievement. Just always reward athletic achievement as well.

I realize this is a small thing but it sends a message and it would be easy to fix.
flyfisher

Btw Bill, not looking to argue. But when kids go looking for the athletic site it's not obvious.
ELB

flyfisher wrote:
Btw Bill, not looking to argue. But when kids go looking for the athletic site it's not obvious.

I just tested Flyfisher's premise that finding info regarding athletics is more difficult on the Lafayette website than it should be, and I find that HE IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!

I accessed the websites of the following Patriot League schools:  Lehigh, Colgate, Bucknell, Holy Cross, Fordham, Georgetown, American and Boston U. along with the 8 Ivy League schools' websites.  Lafayette's access is the most difficult of all.

Six have athletics as a tab at the top of the home page - that tab equal to "About", "Admissions", etc. - Lehigh, Fordham, Holy Cross, Bucknell, Dartmouth and Columbia.

One (Georgetown) has an Athletics tab at the top but as a secondary tab below others and in fine print.

Eight have Athletics under a tab at the top like "More" (Penn) or at the bottom (Colgate, American, Boston U., Cornell, Harvard, Princeton, Brown).

One, LAFAYETTE, has a tab at the top labelled "CAMPUS LIFE" under which in very fine italic print (and all in small case) is "activities & athletics" - almost like the admin is embaressed to have to admit the presence of them on campus.  The tab is not obvious and pushing it brings up a drop-down menu of an 8-item list on which "Athletics" is included along with items I would consider of lesser importance.  And another button to push.  I get the sense that the designers of the LC website wish to distance themselves from that smelly college area called athletics.
pards123

Agree with the others. You shouldn't have to search for the athletics link on the home page of a division 1 school. That is a joke and is insulting to the athletes and fans alike, in my opinion. It doesn't have to be this way. I don't get it.
Lafalum

pards123 wrote:
Agree with the others. You shouldn't have to search for the athletics link on the home page of a division 1 school. That is a joke and is insulting to the athletes and fans alike, in my opinion. It doesn't have to be this way. I don't get it.



Perhaps there is point here beyond just the ease of finding the athletics page but how the institution looks at athletics. I often wonder when Bruce and presumably Jim Dicker meet with their respective bosses and what the items discussed and what priority wins and losses are. I envision a conversation going something like this.

Bruce and Jim: We are having a great year in the athletic dept. We are under budget, 60 pct of our athletes are in the PL honor roll, our disciplinary issues are down and donations are up.

Boss: Sounds like a great year…you all get a bonus and a well done to our coaches.

Bruce and Jim: Even better none of our teams will make a PL playoffs which saves on meals, and lodging for the extra time. We are thinking of cutting preseason in half which will save more money.

Boss: Fantastic and I hear our friends of committees have hustled to buy 5,000 tickets to yankee stadium. We should collect all those names for the new campaign kickoff later this year

Bruce and Jim: It's the best year ever for the athletic department. We are so much better than the other schools in the PL who just win.
flyfisher

Lafalum wrote:
pards123 wrote:
Agree with the others. You shouldn't have to search for the athletics link on the home page of a division 1 school. That is a joke and is insulting to the athletes and fans alike, in my opinion. It doesn't have to be this way. I don't get it.



Perhaps there is point here beyond just the ease of finding the athletics page but how the institution looks at athletics. I often wonder when Bruce and presumably Jim Dicker meet with their respective bosses and what the items discussed and what priority wins and losses are. I envision a conversation going something like this.

Bruce and Jim: We are having a great year in the athletic dept. We are under budget, 60 pct of our athletes are in the PL honor roll, our disciplinary issues are down and donations are up.

Boss: Sounds like a great year…you all get a bonus and a well done to our coaches.

Bruce and Jim: Even better none of our teams will make a PL playoffs which saves on meals, and lodging for the extra time. We are thinking of cutting preseason in half which will save more money.

Boss: Fantastic and I hear our friends of committees have hustled to buy 5,000 tickets to yankee stadium. We should collect all those names for the new campaign kickoff later this year

Bruce and Jim: It's the best year ever for the athletic department. We are so much better than the other schools in the PL who just win.


First, I don't have any ill will in my comments. anything I say here I would say to anyone's face. I post on some other boards and on one of them we got everyone to post in their real name or at least sign every post. It sure cleans things up. The way I look at it is you cant say it to someone's face then don't say it. My comments are simply based on what I see compared to other schools, some I have dealt with, some I have not. I don't mean to ruffle any feathers.

As to Lafayette, I think Lafayette has tons of potential. The academics are great and the sports facilities are top notch for the most part. Both football and basketball have excellent facilities. Many FCS football programs do not have the workout facilities that Lafayette has. My oldest son's school won a national title in the 5-6 years and their facilities are nothing like what Lafayette has. That Bourger facility is fantastic.


Lafalum's post above, while tongue in cheek, MIGHT not be far off. To understand why things are the way they are I think you have to know what is important to someone and how they are judged. In other words, what is important to the school and how is our AD/President judged? If we are under or within budgets, have athletes making great grades for the most part, very good facilities and within budget and fund raising is going well, then I would bet the powers that be are very pleased with the overall athletic direction. I don't think it is smart to adapt a win at all cost attitude. No reason to go in to debt for athletic championships. At the D1 level sports are already the tail wagging the dog in academics. We don't want that but somewhere there has to be some balance.

Sort of like the Pittsburgh Pirates. They have been one of the top most profitable ML baseball teams for over a decade. Only in the last year or so did they show any real success on the field, unless you want to go back to the Parker, Clemente, and Stargell days. Since then they have been terrible on the field. But they make tons of money and that is what is important to the ownership.

So to Lafalum's point, we need to know what is important to the Board and the President and what they expect out of the AD. Having all those facts would help us better understand where we are. Some of you guys here are pretty connected. Maybe you guys already know what the athletic objectives are. I don't but I think I know what they could be. I see potential.

One question on academics. Someone above says there is a group looking at school size and program growth in academics. Obviously I have no influence but I am curious why Lafayette does not build a quality business school? We have the liberal arts background, we have an economics program. I don't understand why we don't have a business school with a business, finance and accounting degree offered. that would appeal to a lot of kids. Lots of jobs out there in the finance world. These are majors that I believe will serve our economy well. just my thoughts during lunch break.
Franks Tanks

flyfisher wrote:
Lafalum wrote:
pards123 wrote:
Agree with the others. You shouldn't have to search for the athletics link on the home page of a division 1 school. That is a joke and is insulting to the athletes and fans alike, in my opinion. It doesn't have to be this way. I don't get it.



Perhaps there is point here beyond just the ease of finding the athletics page but how the institution looks at athletics. I often wonder when Bruce and presumably Jim Dicker meet with their respective bosses and what the items discussed and what priority wins and losses are. I envision a conversation going something like this.

Bruce and Jim: We are having a great year in the athletic dept. We are under budget, 60 pct of our athletes are in the PL honor roll, our disciplinary issues are down and donations are up.

Boss: Sounds like a great year…you all get a bonus and a well done to our coaches.

Bruce and Jim: Even better none of our teams will make a PL playoffs which saves on meals, and lodging for the extra time. We are thinking of cutting preseason in half which will save more money.

Boss: Fantastic and I hear our friends of committees have hustled to buy 5,000 tickets to yankee stadium. We should collect all those names for the new campaign kickoff later this year

Bruce and Jim: It's the best year ever for the athletic department. We are so much better than the other schools in the PL who just win.


First, I don't have any ill will in my comments. anything I say here I would say to anyone's face. I post on some other boards and on one of them we got everyone to post in their real name or at least sign every post. It sure cleans things up. The way I look at it is you cant say it to someone's face then don't say it. My comments are simply based on what I see compared to other schools, some I have dealt with, some I have not. I don't mean to ruffle any feathers.

As to Lafayette, I think Lafayette has tons of potential. The academics are great and the sports facilities are top notch for the most part. Both football and basketball have excellent facilities. Many FCS football programs do not have the workout facilities that Lafayette has. My oldest son's school won a national title in the 5-6 years and their facilities are nothing like what Lafayette has. That Bourger facility is fantastic.


Lafalum's post above, while tongue in cheek, MIGHT not be far off. To understand why things are the way they are I think you have to know what is important to someone and how they are judged. In other words, what is important to the school and how is our AD/President judged? If we are under or within budgets, have athletes making great grades for the most part, very good facilities and within budget and fund raising is going well, then I would bet the powers that be are very pleased with the overall athletic direction. I don't think it is smart to adapt a win at all cost attitude. No reason to go in to debt for athletic championships. At the D1 level sports are already the tail wagging the dog in academics. We don't want that but somewhere there has to be some balance.

Sort of like the Pittsburgh Pirates. They have been one of the top most profitable ML baseball teams for over a decade. Only in the last year or so did they show any real success on the field, unless you want to go back to the Parker, Clemente, and Stargell days. Since then they have been terrible on the field. But they make tons of money and that is what is important to the ownership.

So to Lafalum's point, we need to know what is important to the Board and the President and what they expect out of the AD. Having all those facts would help us better understand where we are. Some of you guys here are pretty connected. Maybe you guys already know what the athletic objectives are. I don't but I think I know what they could be. I see potential.

One question on academics. Someone above says there is a group looking at school size and program growth in academics. Obviously I have no influence but I am curious why Lafayette does not build a quality business school? We have the liberal arts background, we have an economics program. I don't understand why we don't have a business school with a business, finance and accounting degree offered. that would appeal to a lot of kids. Lots of jobs out there in the finance world. These are majors that I believe will serve our economy well. just my thoughts during lunch break.


Lafayette offers a very high quality business education. Tons of graduates work at Goldman, Blackstone and all the other "prestige" wall street firms. Regarding the economics major. As a liberal arts college you are not going to find a "niche" majors like Supply Chain or HR management in the econ department, or any other for that matter. At Lafayette you can concentrate in finance or accounting, and take all the classes you would find elsewhere. Your degree however will say Econ.

I agree that there would be value in creating a few more majors within the department rather than the blanket econ degree.  It helps to have a major that better describes the courses taken.  The pushback will be that Lafayette is a liberal arts college and other liberal arts colleges do not have business majors. By the way you will not find a business major at Colgate or Holy Cross. Im my opinion Lafayette is most like schools such as Bucknell and maybe Richmond  Schools that look a lot like traditional liberal arts colleges, but bridge the gap. Lafayette should place an emphasis on the fact that we offer a liberal arts style atmosphere and education, with majors that provide a wealth of transferable, real world  skills.  I agree, just add a Finance, Accounting and maybe marketing or business major.  We already have profs that teach all, or 90%, of the classes required for such majors.  It will just be easier to explain.
flyfisher

ed65 wrote:
This is a timely discussion since it deals with the future and how to change the culture of mediocrity that chararacterizes LC athletics.   The new President has formed at least two committees: one to make recommendations about the cirriculum (as I understand it) and one to deal with the size of the school.  Both could affect athletics positively and negatively, needless to say.  If there are ways that contributors to this board can speak to members of those committees to promote the need to change the culture down at Kirby, it probably is a good idea.  

The "Marketing Dept." likes to celebrate the academic achievements of LC Athletes which is fine but I think celebrating wins and championships is just as good if not better.  

The robust sales of tickets to the 150th Lehigh Game may be the best thing to happen with LC Athletics.  I hope the Admin, BOD and Faculty are listening.


How do you find out who is on these committees?
flyfisher

Franks Tanks wrote:
flyfisher wrote:
Lafalum wrote:
pards123 wrote:
Agree with the others. You shouldn't have to search for the athletics link on the home page of a division 1 school. That is a joke and is insulting to the athletes and fans alike, in my opinion. It doesn't have to be this way. I don't get it.



Perhaps there is point here beyond just the ease of finding the athletics page but how the institution looks at athletics. I often wonder when Bruce and presumably Jim Dicker meet with their respective bosses and what the items discussed and what priority wins and losses are. I envision a conversation going something like this.

Bruce and Jim: We are having a great year in the athletic dept. We are under budget, 60 pct of our athletes are in the PL honor roll, our disciplinary issues are down and donations are up.

Boss: Sounds like a great year…you all get a bonus and a well done to our coaches.

Bruce and Jim: Even better none of our teams will make a PL playoffs which saves on meals, and lodging for the extra time. We are thinking of cutting preseason in half which will save more money.

Boss: Fantastic and I hear our friends of committees have hustled to buy 5,000 tickets to yankee stadium. We should collect all those names for the new campaign kickoff later this year

Bruce and Jim: It's the best year ever for the athletic department. We are so much better than the other schools in the PL who just win.


First, I don't have any ill will in my comments. anything I say here I would say to anyone's face. I post on some other boards and on one of them we got everyone to post in their real name or at least sign every post. It sure cleans things up. The way I look at it is you cant say it to someone's face then don't say it. My comments are simply based on what I see compared to other schools, some I have dealt with, some I have not. I don't mean to ruffle any feathers.

As to Lafayette, I think Lafayette has tons of potential. The academics are great and the sports facilities are top notch for the most part. Both football and basketball have excellent facilities. Many FCS football programs do not have the workout facilities that Lafayette has. My oldest son's school won a national title in the 5-6 years and their facilities are nothing like what Lafayette has. That Bourger facility is fantastic.


Lafalum's post above, while tongue in cheek, MIGHT not be far off. To understand why things are the way they are I think you have to know what is important to someone and how they are judged. In other words, what is important to the school and how is our AD/President judged? If we are under or within budgets, have athletes making great grades for the most part, very good facilities and within budget and fund raising is going well, then I would bet the powers that be are very pleased with the overall athletic direction. I don't think it is smart to adapt a win at all cost attitude. No reason to go in to debt for athletic championships. At the D1 level sports are already the tail wagging the dog in academics. We don't want that but somewhere there has to be some balance.

Sort of like the Pittsburgh Pirates. They have been one of the top most profitable ML baseball teams for over a decade. Only in the last year or so did they show any real success on the field, unless you want to go back to the Parker, Clemente, and Stargell days. Since then they have been terrible on the field. But they make tons of money and that is what is important to the ownership.

So to Lafalum's point, we need to know what is important to the Board and the President and what they expect out of the AD. Having all those facts would help us better understand where we are. Some of you guys here are pretty connected. Maybe you guys already know what the athletic objectives are. I don't but I think I know what they could be. I see potential.

One question on academics. Someone above says there is a group looking at school size and program growth in academics. Obviously I have no influence but I am curious why Lafayette does not build a quality business school? We have the liberal arts background, we have an economics program. I don't understand why we don't have a business school with a business, finance and accounting degree offered. that would appeal to a lot of kids. Lots of jobs out there in the finance world. These are majors that I believe will serve our economy well. just my thoughts during lunch break.


Lafayette offers a very high quality business education. Tons of graduates work at Goldman, Blackstone and all the other "prestige" wall street firms. Regarding the economics major. As a liberal arts college you are not going to find a "niche" majors like Supply Chain or HR management in the econ department, or any other for that matter. At Lafayette you can concentrate in finance or accounting, and take all the classes you would find elsewhere. Your degree however will say Econ.

I agree that there would be value in creating a few more majors within the department rather than the blanket econ degree.  It helps to have a major that better describes the courses taken.  The pushback will be that Lafayette is a liberal arts college and other liberal arts colleges do not have business majors. By the way you will not find a business major at Colgate or Holy Cross. Im my opinion Lafayette is most like schools such as Bucknell and maybe Richmond  Schools that look a lot like traditional liberal arts colleges, but bridge the gap. Lafayette should place an emphasis on the fact that we offer a liberal arts style atmosphere and education, with majors that provide a wealth of transferable, real world  skills.  I agree, just add a Finance, Accounting and maybe marketing or business major.  We already have profs that teach all, or 90%, of the classes required for such majors.  It will just be easier to explain.


I am aware there are many Lafayette alums working in finance related businesses as well as Wall Street. Also familiar with the Economics program. Aware that it is a top program which appealed to me son.

I was referring to something more similar to the Robins School of Business at Richmond, since you mention Richmond. they have a business school with degrees in Accounting, Marketing, Economics, Finance, and Business Operations. Definitely not looking for the latest fads like Supply Chain Mgmt. That was my only point. Richmond is a liberal arts school that offers these degrees. I don't think it would be hard to offer this and I think there is demand for it.
BillS

Check the clerk of the faculty sll the committees and members are listed there. e="flyfisher:37814"]
ed65 wrote:
This is a timely discussion since it deals with the future and how to change the culture of mediocrity that chararacterizes LC athletics.   The new President has formed at least two committees: one to make recommendations about the cirriculum (as I understand it) and one to deal with the size of the school.  Both could affect athletics positively and negatively, needless to say.  If there are ways that contributors to this board can speak to members of those committees to promote the need to change the culture down at Kirby, it probably is a good idea.  

The "Marketing Dept." likes to celebrate the academic achievements of LC Athletes which is fine but I think celebrating wins and championships is just as good if not better.  

The robust sales of tickets to the 150th Lehigh Game may be the best thing to happen with LC Athletics.  I hope the Admin, BOD and Faculty are listening.


How do you find out who is on these committees?[/quote]
Lafalum

You guys DO get it. People respond to the person "signing their check." It's only human nature. It doesn't make them evil.
flyfisher

I enjoy visiting the site and commenting or being a part of a discussion. However I realize I am new to Lafayette, don't know much at all of the history, nor do I bring any solutions that have not already been considered. My comments come from the potential I see in the school combined with the enthusiasm that comes with being new. I think Lafayette has great potential. the school is near the top in the country in many aspects, deservedly so.

From an athletic standpoint, now that Lafayette is offering scholarships the window widens as to where we recruit. The school has the academic strength and reputation as well as great facilities for the most part to attract on a national level.

Looking in the world I am more familiar with, there are very few schools in the South that offer what Lafayette (and other PL schools) offer. Wofford, Furman, Richmond, William and Mary are all good academic schools, though mostly only liberal arts and some sciences. No engineering. Lafayette, Bucknell, and Lehigh are unusual in that they are top liberal arts schools while offering engineering as well. If an athlete wants to study engineering or other technical fields, there are very limited options in the South. Really only have The Citadel, and that is not for everyone. Granted, not many athletes are looking for engineering. The work load is brutal for serious athletes.

Anyway, that is what I see as a new person to Lafayette. So please put up with some of my comments and just understand they come from enthusiasm and a fresh set of eyes on the school.
Lafalum

It's actually refreshing to see that new eyes don't see it much differently than our "old" eyes do. Keep it coming!!!
ed65

Flyfisher: Glad you joined the Board.  The more people who comment on here, the better.
TheRock90

Re: New season same results

Lafalum wrote:
We are now into the winter season and we are seeing the same results. If things continue as it has started it looks like we will not have a winning team at Lafayette by the time Lacrosse and Baseball open up. Is there  something more generic going on?? Lack of overall funding?  Problems in our approach to  recruiting? Lack of accountability in our coaching staff?? It's starting to look to me that there might be an overall issue at work somewhere.


I've done some calculations based on information supplied by Sports Information. I've looked at our success by sport since 2000 (or the McCutcheon era). I'll list the overall won/lost record for both PL play and all games by sport, and our winning percentage. Please note I did not include sports that do not play a PL schedule, rather the have championship events.

I'll list the individual sports (which reflect trends) as I have time but wanted to get the overall list online for discussion. Here goes:

                     All Games                                       PL Games
Sport         W    L    T    Win%                       W     L    T     Win%

WBB          85  254         25%                       37    131          22%

MBB         162  189        46%                        83     91          48%

WSOC        76  146  25   31%                       16     74   9      16%

MSOC       121   73  53   49%                        47    33   23     46%

MLAX         47  126         27%                       13    55            19%

WLAX        66   164        29%                        26    49            35%

FH           144   101        59%                        45    33           58%

BB           255   357        42%                       122  146           46%

SB           175   423        29%                         84  193           30%

FB             78    82         49%                         42   38            53%

VB           120   261        31%                         42  155            21%


Totals      1329   2176     38%                       557   998          36%
Lafalum

Re: New season same results

TheRock90 wrote:
Lafalum wrote:
We are now into the winter season and we are seeing the same results. If things continue as it has started it looks like we will not have a winning team at Lafayette by the time Lacrosse and Baseball open up. Is there  something more generic going on?? Lack of overall funding?  Problems in our approach to  recruiting? Lack of accountability in our coaching staff?? It's starting to look to me that there might be an overall issue at work somewhere.


I've done some calculations based on information supplied by Sports Information. I've looked at our success by sport since 2000 (or the McCutcheon era). I'll list the overall won/lost record for both PL play and all games by sport, and our winning percentage. Please note I did not include sports that do not play a PL schedule, rather the have championship events.

I'll list the individual sports (which reflect trends) as I have time but wanted to get the overall list online for discussion. Here goes:

                     All Games                                       PL Games
Sport         W    L    T    Win%                       W     L    T     Win%

WBB          85  254         25%                       37    131          22%

MBB         162  189        46%                        83     91          48%

WSOC        76  146  25   31%                       16     74   9      16%

MSOC       121   73  53   49%                        47    33   23     46%

MLAX         47  126         27%                       13    55            19%

WLAX        66   164        29%                        26    49            35%

FH           144   101        59%                        45    33           58%

BB           255   357        42%                       122  146           46%

SB           175   423        29%                         84  193           30%

FB             78    82         49%                         42   38            53%

VB           120   261        31%                         42  155            21%


Totals      1329   2176     38%                       557   998          36%


Interesting to note that for much of this period  M/W basketball suffered from being the only pl team without scholarships. Since 2006 Men's soccer and field hockey have had scholarships and actually may have had an advantage in the PL. ( Scholarships were allowed by adding 1/4  of the NCAA limit per year). Football was a level playing field until Weiss lowered the equivalencies 3 and 4 years ago.  Basketball added at the same rate as FH and Soccer reaching parity with the league in 2010/11 Everyone else was presumably at parity with the PL.

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