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Bogus Megapardus

PL and NCAA Tournaments

Lehigh beat Colgate, 16-14, in a wild PL tournament final.  The vaunted Lehigh defense almost didn't hold.  This was a nationally-broadcast game and was one of the best, most exciting games I've seen in a while.  PL lax has become hard core.  Congrats to the Brown Panties for schooling us all once again.

Lehigh now has the PL auto bid to the 16-team NCAA tournament.  They are the first of seven automatic qualifiers.  The other conferences that get auto bids are America East, Big East, CAA, ECAC, Ivy and MAAC.  That leaves nine at-large qualifiers.  The ACC has only four lacrosse-playing teams (Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, Duke) so it doesn't get an auto bid, but it's pretty certain that all four ACC teams will get at-large bids.  Hopkins almost certainly will get an at-large bid, too.

Realistically, that leaves four open spots for the rest of the field.  I'm betting the farm that Colgate will get one of those four spots, especially if they beat Maryland in their final regular season game on Saturday.  That would mean that the PL would have a first-ever two teams in the tournament.  Lehigh might even get a home game.

Bucknell is on the bubble and could sneak past Cornell and Syracuse for the final at-large spot.  The Bison could even slip past North Carolina if N.C. somehow tanks against lowly Michigan this weekend. I don't think the committee is quite ready to hand the PL three tournament spots just yet, though.

Anyhow, the way things are shaping up, it's entirely possible that we could see a Duke vs. Lehigh game in the elite eight or final four.  Maybe even the championship.  Wouldn't that be fun?




EDIT - I'm dead wrong about the "first ever" part. The PL got three teams in the NCAA tournament  2004: Army, Navy and Hobart.  Of course, Navy went to the title game in 2004, losing to Syracuse.  Both academies went again in 2005, while Colgate and Navy both went in 2008.  Thanks to TheValleyRaider for pointing this out.  I don't know what I was thinking.
Long Time Fan

Re: PL and NCAA Tournaments

Bogus Megapardus wrote:
Lehigh beat Colgate, 16-14, in a wild PL tournament final.  The vaunted Lehigh defense almost didn't hold.  This was a nationally-broadcast game and was one of the best, most exciting games I've seen in a while.  PL lax has become hard core.  Congrats to the Brown Panties for schooling us all once again.

Lehigh now has the PL auto bid to the 16-team NCAA tournament.  They are the first of seven automatic qualifiers.  The other conferences that get auto bids are America East, Big East, CAA, ECAC, Ivy and MAAC.  That leaves nine at-large qualifiers.  The ACC has only four lacrosse-playing teams (Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, Duke) so it doesn't get an auto bid, but it's pretty certain that all four ACC teams will get at-large bids.  Hopkins almost certainly will get an at-large bid, too.

Realistically, that leaves four open spots for the rest of the field.  I'm betting the farm that Colgate will get one of those four spots, especially if they beat Maryland in their final regular season game on Saturday.  That would mean that the PL would have a first-ever two teams in the tournament.  Lehigh might even get a home game.

Bucknell is on the bubble and could sneak past Cornell and Syracuse for the final at-large spot.  The Bison could even slip past North Carolina if N.C. somehow tanks against lowly Michigan this weekend. I don't think the committee is quite ready to hand the PL three tournament spots just yet, though.

Anyhow, the way things are shaping up, it's entirely possible that we could see a Duke vs. Lehigh game in the elite eight or final four.  Maybe even the championship.  Wouldn't that be fun?


It would be a lot more fun if Lafayette would get involved.
It would be a lot more fun if Lafayette gave a crap.
Franks Tanks

I concur.  It is no fun watching Lehigh compete on the national stage in football, basketball, and lax while we sit around getting our ears kicked in at every turn.
Bogus Megapardus

Re: PL and NCAA Tournaments

Long Time Fan wrote:

It would be a lot more fun if Lafayette would get involved.
It would be a lot more fun if Lafayette gave a crap.


I think Lafayette gives a crap.  I really do.  What has happened, though, is that the Patriot League has become REALLY good at lacrosse, and has risen to the top, with three teams in the top 20.

I remember when Navy decided to join the PL in all sports.  One of the main reasons cited at the time was that Navy would no longer have to earn an at-large bid as an independent in lacrosse and would essentially be assured of a tournament spot.  Now, Bucknell, Lehigh and Colgate have equaled and surpassed Army and Navy in lacrosse.  PL teams are taking on and beating the ACC and other stalwarts.  Ironically, neither Army nor Navy will make the tournament this year.

We have to step up and that means having top coaching and a top staff.  Face it - we're not going to get men's lax scholarships.  But we can win without them.  As Kevin Cassese has demonstrated at Lehigh, it's all about scheme, studying your opponents, playing a physical defense, and winning at small ball - faceoff, clears and transitions. (interestingly, Cassese's father, Tom Cassese who is an ex-NFL player, is on staff as the "Director of Quality Control" for lacrosse at Lehigh).

Relatively few schools are "fully funded" for lacrosse.  Most have only 1-2 scholarships per year.  It would be nice to have scholarships, but we can win and become successful nationally without them.  As with field hockey, Lafayette sits in the middle of one of the hotbeds of lacrosse. High schools such as Bridgewater-Raritan, Summit and Hunterdon Central in New Jersey sit at the top of the national rankings in lacrosse right now.  There are 3,179 high school varsity programs in the United States, but only 61 Division 1 NCAA teams.  Practically all of the top 100 high school teams are within Lafayette's traditional recruiting area (PA, NJ, NY, MD, CT).

High schools lacrosse players are almost cult-like.  They follow the sport assiduously and they know all the DI schools and their coaches, not just the top schools.  The players likely know more about Lafayette lacrosse than Lafayette's staff knows about them.  There kids go to summer lacrosse camps in droves.  There's not a lot of pro action to follow in lacrosse; the NCAA really is the pinnacle of the sport.

Lafayette has just as much of a chance for national success as do Lehigh and Bucknell.  They don't have scholarships but they have great coaches.  With a top, name-brand coaching staff and a winning tradition, plus some nationally-relevant HOME games, kids from western NJ and suburban Philadelphia would pack the stands, even at Metzgar (more on the "Metzgar Lacrosse Experience" at a later time).

Even though Lafayette's AD comes from a school that never had lacrosse, I'm sure that he knows how important the game is, and how fast it is growing.  President Dan Weiss certainly knows what lacrosse means to John Hopkins.  I fully understand that Lafayette sponsors many sports and that not every sport can be "featured," but disregarding the success that really is at Lafayette's fingertips in men's lax really would be a shame.

Can you imagine if Lehigh gets to the Final Four or even the title game this year?  It isn't even a long shot - they can do it.  Wouldn't that mean that it's finally time to get our piece of the pie?
Long Time Fan

Re: PL and NCAA Tournaments

Bogus Megapardus wrote:
Long Time Fan wrote:

It would be a lot more fun if Lafayette would get involved.
It would be a lot more fun if Lafayette gave a crap.


I think Lafayette gives a crap.  I really do.  What has happened, though, is that the Patriot League has become REALLY good at lacrosse, and has risen to the top, with three teams in the top 20.

I remember when Navy decided to join the PL in all sports.  One of the main reasons cited at the time was that Navy would no longer have to earn an at-large bid as an independent in lacrosse and would essentially be assured of a tournament spot.  Now, Bucknell, Lehigh and Colgate have equaled and surpassed Army and Navy in lacrosse.  PL teams are taking on and beating the ACC and other stalwarts.  Ironically, neither Army nor Navy will make the tournament this year.

We have to step up and that means having top coaching and a top staff.  Face it - we're not going to get men's lax scholarships.  But we can win without them.  As Kevin Cassese has demonstrated at Lehigh, it's all about scheme, studying your opponents, playing a physical defense, and winning at small ball - faceoff, clears and transitions. (interestingly, Cassese's father, Tom Cassese who is an ex-NFL player, is on staff as the "Director of Quality Control" for lacrosse at Lehigh).

Relatively few schools are "fully funded" for lacrosse.  Most have only 1-2 scholarships per year.  It would be nice to have scholarships, but we can win and become successful nationally without them.  As with field hockey, Lafayette sits in the middle of one of the hotbeds of lacrosse. High schools such as Bridgewater-Raritan, Summit and Hunterdon Central in New Jersey sit at the top of the national rankings in lacrosse right now.  There are 3,179 high school varsity programs in the United States, but only 61 Division 1 NCAA teams.  Practically all of the top 100 high school teams are within Lafayette's traditional recruiting area (PA, NJ, NY, MD, CT).

High schools lacrosse players are almost cult-like.  They follow the sport assiduously and they know all the DI schools and their coaches, not just the top schools.  The players likely know more about Lafayette lacrosse than Lafayette's staff knows about them.  There kids go to summer lacrosse camps in droves.  There's not a lot of pro action to follow in lacrosse; the NCAA really is the pinnacle of the sport.

Lafayette has just as much of a chance for national success as do Lehigh and Bucknell.  They don't have scholarships but they have great coaches.  With a top, name-brand coaching staff and a winning tradition, plus some nationally-relevant HOME games, kids from western NJ and suburban Philadelphia would pack the stands, even at Metzgar (more on the "Metzgar Lacrosse Experience" at a later time).

Even though Lafayette's AD comes from a school that never had lacrosse, I'm sure that he knows how important the game is, and how fast it is growing.  President Dan Weiss certainly knows what lacrosse means to John Hopkins.  I fully understand that Lafayette sponsors many sports and that not every sport can be "featured," but disregarding the success that really is at Lafayette's fingertips in men's lax really would be a shame.

Can you imagine if Lehigh gets to the Final Four or even the title game this year?  It isn't even a long shot - they can do it.  Wouldn't that mean that it's finally time to get our piece of the pie?


I really do enjoy your commentary on the Lafayette scene and especially appreciate your input on Lacrosse because I know very little about the game.  But I just can't see some of what you have said above.

If the Patriot Leaugue has become really good and It's time to get our piece of the pie, we are obviously going to see a coaching change next year.  That would be an indication that Lafayette does give a crap.  Is that going to happen?  

"Lafayette has just as much chance for national sucess as do Lehigh and Bucknell".  Does Lafayette get the same kind of support from it's administration as do Lehigh and Bucknell?  That would go a long way toward making your statement run true.

Lehigh doesn't put up with athletic programs that put up a 30% W/L percentage over a decade.  Lafayette does.  When that stops, I might believe Lafayette does care a little bit.
PardsLax

Will a new president blow the winds of change?
Pard4Life

Laxpower bracketology for the tourney... Lehigh projected as an 8 seed and Colgate to receive an at-large #10 spot vs. UVA.  http://www.laxpower.com/laxnews/news.php?story=30267
Bogus Megapardus

Pard4Life wrote:
Laxpower bracketology for the tourney... Lehigh projected as an 8 seed and Colgate to receive an at-large #10 spot vs. UVA.  http://www.laxpower.com/laxnews/news.php?story=30267


I just can't rationalize Lehigh as an 8 seed given what they've done this season.  A 6 or perhaps a 7.  I just don't think it will be an 8.

Regardless, I think lots of people would like to see a Lehigh-Duke matchup in a later round.  Does that come into seeding consideration?  Who knows.

Colgate surely deserves an at-large slot regardless of the Maryland game - unless they get completely trounced by the Turtles which I can't imagine will happen.  Their record really demands it.  And if Colgate beats Maryland?  Yeah - the Patriot League really is that good.

I boldly predict Lehigh to the Final Four - and I'm willing to stake carney2's reputation on it.
RichH

If Gate can play Maryland fairly even IMHO they are in . Rankings and RPI virtually identical. With a #6 RPI , we likely will get a 7-8 eed but depends on this weekend's reults lots of upsets this week in conference tourneys
Bogus Megapardus

COLGATE BEATS MARYLAND!

#11 Colgate over #6 Maryland this afternoon, 13-11, in Hamilton.  Raiders' at-large bid now should be a foregone conclusion.

Congrats to Colgate!  Very well done.

NCAA selection show, with seedings and pairings, will be live on Sunday, May 6 at 9:00 PM on ESPNU.
RichH

Win should move both our rpis up. LU probably a home game
Bogus Megapardus

RichH wrote:
Win should move both our rpis up. LU probably a home game


Lehigh absolutely will be a home game.  Again, I stake carney2's reputation on it.  That is unless the NCAA feels like moving Hopkins into that spot out of "tradition," which would be a shame becasue Lehigh beat Navy and Navy crushed Hopkins.

Colgate might even get a seed and a home game with the win over Maryland.

Even though Lafayette is not in it, it's kind of cool to sit here and discuss high-level, top 8 national seedings for PL teams in a prominent NCAA tournament.
RichH

You were right earlier this season, PL is a top Lax conference and will be again next year given youth in league
Bogus Megapardus

#7 Lehigh will face Maryland in Bethlehem Sunday, May 13 at 7:30 PM.

Colgate will face #6 UMass in Amherst Saturday, May 12 at 2:30 PM.

There are winnable games for both, but Colgate will have its hands full with undefeated UMass.

If Colgate wins they'll play either Duke or Syracuse.  If Lehigh wins they'll play Hopkins or Stony Brook.

Lehigh and Colgate are in the same bracket so they cannot face one another for the national title.  Oh well . . .
Bogus Megapardus

Colgate beats UMass 13-11 in the first round.  UMass was the nation's only undefeated team and it had the #1 RPI.

Awesome job, guys.
Lafalum

Colgate coach had their soph goaltender in due to an injury to their starter. He had less than sixty minutes all season. Colgate was down 7-2 and came back. It was an amazing game. I am going to the Lehigh v Maryland game tomorrow. It is apparently sold out.
Franks Tanks

Congrats to Colgate

I hope Lehigh loses by 50

Maybe Lafayette will make the NCAA Lax tourney at some point in my lifetime but the odds are slim.
bison137

Franks Tanks wrote:
Congrats to Colgate

I hope Lehigh loses by 50

Maybe Lafayette will make the NCAA Lax tourney at some point in my lifetime but the odds are slim.



Courtesy of pakachoag phreek on the Holy Cross board, here are the expenditures on lax, both in 2011 and in 2004, by various PL schools plus Georgetown.  The main components would be scholarship money (or other direct athletic aid), coaches' salaries, and recruiting expenses.


Men's Lax: 2003-04 / 2010-11

Bucknell 320 / 457
Colgate 651 / 855
HC 222 / 266
Georgetown 1033 / 1140#
Lafayette 205 / 519
Lehigh 402 / 1002

# Georgetown is likely at max scollie limit of 12.6.


It would appear that LU is getting close to the NCAA scholarship maximum, and CU is not far behind.   If BU, LC, and HC are going to catch up, they are going to have to start matching the scholarship money.
Franks Tanks

bison137 wrote:
Franks Tanks wrote:
Congrats to Colgate

I hope Lehigh loses by 50

Maybe Lafayette will make the NCAA Lax tourney at some point in my lifetime but the odds are slim.



Courtesy of pakachoag phreek on the Holy Cross board, here are the expenditures on lax, both in 2011 and in 2004, by various PL schools plus Georgetown.  The main components would be scholarship money (or other direct athletic aid), coaches' salaries, and recruiting expenses.


Men's Lax: 2003-04 / 2010-11

Bucknell 320 / 457
Colgate 651 / 855
HC 222 / 266
Georgetown 1033 / 1140#
Lafayette 205 / 519
Lehigh 402 / 1002

# Georgetown is likely at max scollie limit of 12.6.


It would appear that LU is getting close to the NCAA scholarship maximum, and CU is not far behind.   If BU, LC, and HC are going to catch up, they are going to have to start matching the scholarship money.


Thanks for the info Bison.  Lehigh has ramped up spending in several sports, and I guess they can afford to do so given the fact that their undergrad student body is much larger than the others and they have a rather large grad school.

The other obvious point is why is Lafayette so much worse than Bucknell when we spend more?  The only answer would be poor coaching and poor leadership in general from the top down.  Given our budget it will be difficult to compete with the big dogs on a year to year basis but we should be much better.  

Bucknell and Lehigh have quality wrestling programs, and Colgate and Holy Cross have the same in Hockey.  Since Lafayette has neither there is no reason why we can't focus on Lax and turn it into a major men's sports at Lafayette.  It will probably won't happen however, and once again Leopard fans will sit on the sideline and watch our peers compete in championship games and NCAA tournaments. It is becoming very hard to take.
Lafalum

For all the things we aspire to and want for our school we should be planning to increase the size by 1000 in the next 5- 10 years. We own property east of the campus and increasing the size will put us in that sweet spot of attractiveness that Bucknell, and Colgate have put themselves into. We would have to give up on being Williams south or Swathmore north. Now that would be a strategic plan instead of our grass planting strategy that has worked so well.
SIDELINER

One of the other guys wrote, "Bucknell and Lehigh have quality wrestling programs, and Colgate and Holy Cross have the same in Hockey.  Since Lafayette has neither there is no reason why we can't focus on Lax and turn it into a major men's sports at Lafayette.  It will probably won't happen however, and once again Leopard fans will sit on the sideline and watch our peers compete in championship games and NCAA tournaments. It is becoming very hard to take."[/quote]

Why not just give the above schools credit for their wrestling and hockey prowess and understand that those sports could present numbers problems for those schools in recruiting scholarship football players. Perhaps Lafayette should put its eggs into the football basket and let the other sports to those other people. Wouldn't that be more fun?
Lafalum

SIDELINER wrote:
One of the other guys wrote, "Bucknell and Lehigh have quality wrestling programs, and Colgate and Holy Cross have the same in Hockey.  Since Lafayette has neither there is no reason why we can't focus on Lax and turn it into a major men's sports at Lafayette.  It will probably won't happen however, and once again Leopard fans will sit on the sideline and watch our peers compete in championship games and NCAA tournaments. It is becoming very hard to take."


Quote:
Why not just give the above schools credit for their wrestling and hockey prowess and understand that those sports could present numbers problems for those schools in recruiting scholarship football players. Perhaps Lafayette should put its eggs into the football basket and let the other sports to those other people. Wouldn't that be more fun?


Except that Bucknell has found success in Basketball and other sports which probably gives them more notice than 1aa football and Lehigh this year has done it all.
Pard4Life

Lehigh lost.  Thank God.  But they have a program now.

Colgate meanwhile beat an undefeated and number two seed.
Gate alum

Colgate Victory

Massachusetts was the #6 seed in the tournament, not #2.
With their 15-0 record and a weak SOS, it was difficult to tell what they'd be like in head to head competition. Gate fought back from a 7-2 and 9-5 deficit and started a sophomore goalie who previously never started a game. The win in the NCAA MLAX tourney hopefully serves as a huge boost for the P.L. and Colgate going forward. Duke presents a great challenge.

This has been an exciting MLAX season for the P.L.
I agree with the sentiment expressed here that the growth of lax presents a substantial opportunity for the P.L.
carney2

Normally I'd be standing under the banner that says

"What's good for the Patriot League is good for Lafayette,"

But all the good news coming out of Squawkville vs. zero, nada, zilch from The Hill is getting old.  I move that we upgrade to D-1 athletics.
Pard4Life

carney2 wrote:
Normally I'd be standing under the banner that says

"What's good for the Patriot League is good for Lafayette,"

But all the good news coming out of Squawkville vs. zero, nada, zilch from The Hill is getting old.  I move that we upgrade to D-1 athletics.


No we have fraternities and the administration suing and counter-suing and op-eds on how Lafayette is an awful place where student drinking tragedies happen.

What is good for the Patriot League never affects Lafayette... because we are not the school winning.

Contrary, LFN thinks that the strength of the PL hinges on the strength of Lehigh.  Yeah, that looks true now-a-days.
RichH

Galling and frustrating from LC. I recall yrs when LU in same boat. Gate and LU success is good for PL. Heck Gate and LU games were hours  and hours of free advertising for PL as well as those schools. One hopes your new Pres will at least acknowledge that sports has a place in college and as such s/b put in a position to succeed. LU has been very lucky with our admin support of AD and the great work of Sterrett to build a good overall program. Now back to football
cr

RichH wrote:
Galling and frustrating from LC. I recall yrs when LU in same boat. Gate and LU success is good for PL. Heck Gate and LU games were hours  and hours of free advertising for PL as well as those schools. One hopes your new Pres will at least acknowledge that sports has a place in college and as such s/b put in a position to succeed. LU has been very lucky with our admin support of AD and the great work of Sterrett to build a good overall program. Now back to football


Sorry about the loss Rich.  You guys are very lucky to have Sterrett who is a fantastic AD. The PL is on the map and have to keep the "mo" going,
Gate alum

Don't underestimate the contribution to the P.L. "brand" of the traditions and unwavering comittment of West Point and Annapolis to athletics.  They're perceived by a broad swath of American sports fans as respected national brands. Association with the service academy niche within college sports by P.L. schools adds to the stature and perceived competiveness of the league.  It goes beyond the "front porch" ( Rich H's free publicity ) argument that the constituents for athletics of every other P.L. school have to resort to when athletics isn't valued in itself. Or when the older traditions of P.L. schools as "giant-killers" in Div. 1 are abandoned, to reshape the schools' academic reputations. The policy makers of other P.L. schools are more tolerant of going through down performance cycles for individual sports or the athletic program in aggregate than the leadership of the service academies. Competitiveness and consistency of performance across many areas, including athletics, is symbolic of strength and balance at the academies. It is a public face demanded by the broad constituency of the Army and Navy. So Athletics has a different power base in the policy-making process. The A. & N. athletic constituencies are much broader, many-fold, than just their students and alumni. Case in point....look at how the CBS Sports national television programming in lax emphasizes Army and Navy among P.L. schools. CBS Sports knows that regardless of their current performance, the Army and Navy brands are always going to attract a decent audience.
Whereas other P.L. schools might spike the audience based on recent performance, but it's a transient impact. And that's because the service academies have long and far-reaching traditions. And they work hard to correct down cycles to maintain the minimun of intercollegiate success that the Army and Navy "brand" necessitates. No other Patriot League school has this kind of safety net, bolstering its comittment to athletics.
bison137

RichH wrote:
LU has been very lucky with our admin support of AD and the great work of Sterrett to build a good overall program. Now back to football



First of all, congrats to LU and CU for a great season.

To your point, has Sterrett really done anything wonderful - or is the biggest reason for the success simply that LU has far more scholarship money to work with than the rest of the league, with the exception of Colgate, in lax and many other team sports?

Yes, LU has been lucky that the admin has been willing to fund so many scholarships.    At some point I hope BU will be so lucky.
Gate alum

Sterrett's success goes beyond the availability of scholarship money. Because of Sterretts multifaceted ties to L.U. as a successful student athlete himself, his professionalism ( Doctorate ? ) and probably his connections to powerful alumni and benefactors of the school, he has the ears of the right people. He's probably perceived as "credible."  It seems like Alice Gast, at least publicly, is on the same page with him. It's like the credibility and leverage Mark Murphy had at Colgate with all of the necessary constituents and stakeholders. There are many factors that go into the cyclicality of policy making at individual P.L. achools and their potential impact on athletic traditions. Each P.L. school is in a different part of this cycle at any given point, regarding individual sports as well as athletics in general. If your perspective is long term, it's all subject to change.
Franks Tanks

bison137 wrote:
RichH wrote:
LU has been very lucky with our admin support of AD and the great work of Sterrett to build a good overall program. Now back to football



First of all, congrats to LU and CU for a great season.

To your point, has Sterrett really done anything wonderful - or is the biggest reason for the success simply that LU has far more scholarship money to work with than the rest of the league, with the exception of Colgate, in lax and many other team sports?

Yes, LU has been lucky that the admin has been willing to fund so many scholarships.    At some point I hope BU will be so lucky.


I tend to agree with you. Lehigh's budget and ability to admit student-athletes other schools would not is the key driver to their success.  Money and admission flexibility does not guarantee anything, as Joe and his staff must execute, but he has resouces nobody else in the league can match.
TheRock90

carney2 wrote:
Normally I'd be standing under the banner that says

"What's good for the Patriot League is good for Lafayette,"

But all the good news coming out of Squawkville vs. zero, nada, zilch from The Hill is getting old.  I move that we upgrade to D-1 athletics.



Carney2, there is no reason to worry. Our new AD is working on a plan where every team will have the opportunity to be a Patriot League Championship team during a four year cycle.  I beleive he will be introducing it shortly.
RichH

$$$ and will plus hiring able coaches does make for a winning situation. Gate is correct that over the decades these factors tend to be cyclical. Why
? No clue. In my time LU went thru one very bad one one where we lost in every sport and one where football was the orphan child until Kevin rebuilt it. Bball alone has decades and decades of misery. Now we have an ideal combination. Perhaps we do spend more and wisely. Well the answer is for others to spend as wisely and more than they are now. LU partnership programs raise a lot of $$$ every year for the different sports. I give to 3 or 4 different ones every year..
Pard4Life

Losing is not cyclical when you suck for 20 years and 65 out of 70 in lacrosse.
PL LAX

Franks Tanks wrote:
bison137 wrote:
RichH wrote:
LU has been very lucky with our admin support of AD and the great work of Sterrett to build a good overall program. Now back to football



First of all, congrats to LU and CU for a great season.

To your point, has Sterrett really done anything wonderful - or is the biggest reason for the success simply that LU has far more scholarship money to work with than the rest of the league, with the exception of Colgate, in lax and many other team sports?

Yes, LU has been lucky that the admin has been willing to fund so many scholarships.    At some point I hope BU will be so lucky.


I tend to agree with you. Lehigh's budget and ability to admit student-athletes other schools would not is the key driver to their success.  Money and admission flexibility does not guarantee anything, as Joe and his staff must execute, but he has resouces nobody else in the league can match.


Money is a key factor and Lehigh's success with four Patriot League Championships is proof of that.  As far as Lehigh admitting student athletes that other schools wouldn't, I'd like to know which schools you're referring to and where that information is coming from.  Lehigh is more selective than Lafayette in regard to general admissions and I wouldn't be surprised if that were true for student athletes as well.
Bogus Megapardus

PL LAX wrote:
 Lehigh is more selective than Lafayette


Lehigh was my Safety School.
Franks Tanks

PL LAX wrote:
Franks Tanks wrote:
bison137 wrote:
RichH wrote:
LU has been very lucky with our admin support of AD and the great work of Sterrett to build a good overall program. Now back to football



First of all, congrats to LU and CU for a great season.

To your point, has Sterrett really done anything wonderful - or is the biggest reason for the success simply that LU has far more scholarship money to work with than the rest of the league, with the exception of Colgate, in lax and many other team sports?

Yes, LU has been lucky that the admin has been willing to fund so many scholarships.    At some point I hope BU will be so lucky.


I tend to agree with you. Lehigh's budget and ability to admit student-athletes other schools would not is the key driver to their success.  Money and admission flexibility does not guarantee anything, as Joe and his staff must execute, but he has resouces nobody else in the league can match.


Money is a key factor and Lehigh's success with four Patriot League Championships is proof of that.  As far as Lehigh admitting student athletes that other schools wouldn't, I'd like to know which schools you're referring to and where that information is coming from.  Lehigh is more selective than Lafayette in regard to general admissions and I wouldn't be surprised if that were true for student athletes as well.


It is quite well known within the league that Lehigh stretches the AI.  Each year Lehigh admits athletes that the coaches at Colgate, Lafayette, Bucknell and Holy Cross cannot.  I clearly do not have the admission stats of every athlete to show you hard proof, but check the Lehigh football graduation rates of late.  They are much lower than the other PL schools.  I am not debating if the practice is good or bad for Lehigh, but stating that Lehigh often admits athletes that other PL schools do not and have for many years.  Fans of each school in the PL can provide individual examples to back this up.
PL LAX

Franks Tanks wrote:
PL LAX wrote:
Franks Tanks wrote:
bison137 wrote:
RichH wrote:
LU has been very lucky with our admin support of AD and the great work of Sterrett to build a good overall program. Now back to football



First of all, congrats to LU and CU for a great season.

To your point, has Sterrett really done anything wonderful - or is the biggest reason for the success simply that LU has far more scholarship money to work with than the rest of the league, with the exception of Colgate, in lax and many other team sports?

Yes, LU has been lucky that the admin has been willing to fund so many scholarships.    At some point I hope BU will be so lucky.


I tend to agree with you. Lehigh's budget and ability to admit student-athletes other schools would not is the key driver to their success.  Money and admission flexibility does not guarantee anything, as Joe and his staff must execute, but he has resouces nobody else in the league can match.


Money is a key factor and Lehigh's success with four Patriot League Championships is proof of that.  As far as Lehigh admitting student athletes that other schools wouldn't, I'd like to know which schools you're referring to and where that information is coming from.  Lehigh is more selective than Lafayette in regard to general admissions and I wouldn't be surprised if that were true for student athletes as well.


It is quite well known within the league that Lehigh stretches the AI.  Each year Lehigh admits athletes that the coaches at Colgate, Lafayette, Bucknell and Holy Cross cannot.  I clearly do not have the admission stats of every athlete to show you hard proof, but check the Lehigh football graduation rates of late.  They are much lower than the other PL schools.  I am not debating if the practice is good or bad for Lehigh, but stating that Lehigh often admits athletes that other PL schools do not and have for many years.  Fans of each school in the PL can provide individual examples to back this up.


Your claim that Lehigh stretches the AI is based on heresay.
As far as trying to back it up with the football players grad rates, this in no way proves that their AI was considerably lower to warrant other PL schools to deny admittance.
PL LAX

Bogus Megapardus wrote:
PL LAX wrote:
 Lehigh is more selective than Lafayette


Lehigh was my Safety School.


Lafayette would be the logical choice for someone who equates "more selective" with "safety school". Rolling Eyes
Bogus Megapardus

PL LAX wrote:
Bogus Megapardus wrote:
PL LAX wrote:
 Lehigh is more selective than Lafayette


Lehigh was my Safety School.


Lafayette would be the logical choice for someone who equates "more selective" with "safety school". Rolling Eyes


This board is an excellent place to discuss some (though certainly not all) aspects Lehigh's athletic program in terms of a model of success that Lafayette might wish to follow.  But you might encounter some resistance here if you are suggesting that Lehigh produces superior graduates or is more rigorously academic than is Lafayette (particularly with regard to athletes) - neither of which is true.  

And to repeat - Lehigh indeed was my Safety School.
RichH

No serious argument can be had as to academic meritsof Lafayette or Lehigh
Both are excellent. The "everyone knows" argument a bit disingenuous. No one knows . people assume. We can know that no kid at either school  falls below the AI floor. That Lehigh Admissions office works more closely with sports certainly true. Not our fault that yours does not.
Andy

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Franks Tanks

RichH wrote:
No serious argument can be had as to academic meritsof Lafayette or Lehigh
Both are excellent. The "everyone knows" argument a bit disingenuous. No one knows . people assume. We can know that no kid at either school  falls below the AI floor. That Lehigh Admissions office works more closely with sports certainly true. Not our fault that yours does not.


Rich you are right that I cannot prove my statement, but the anecdotal evidence is strong.  Fans of our peers schools often lament that a player was denied admission at their school and admitted to another.  My point is that in addition to extra funding Lehigh seems to be more open to admitting borderline students.  How else can the recent Lehigh football graduation rates be explained?
PL LAX

Bogus Megapardus wrote:
PL LAX wrote:
Bogus Megapardus wrote:
PL LAX wrote:
 Lehigh is more selective than Lafayette


Lehigh was my Safety School.


Lafayette would be the logical choice for someone who equates "more selective" with "safety school". Rolling Eyes


This board is an excellent place to discuss some (though certainly not all) aspects Lehigh's athletic program in terms of a model of success that Lafayette might wish to follow.  But you might encounter some resistance here if you are suggesting that Lehigh produces superior graduates or is more rigorously academic than is Lafayette (particularly with regard to athletes) - neither of which is true.  

And to repeat - Lehigh indeed was my Safety School.


I didn't knock Lafayette's academics, just stated the FACT that Lehigh is more selective than Lafayette.  Hence, the "safety school" moniker does not apply to Lehigh in regard to anyone applying to Lafayette.  My argument is the accusations made by another poster that Lehigh stretches the AI.  Presenting heresay and football grad rates does not make it true.
Bogus Megapardus

PL LAX wrote:

I didn't knock Lafayette's academics, just stated the FACT that Lehigh is more selective than Lafayette.  Hence, the "safety school" moniker does not apply to Lehigh in regard to anyone applying to Lafayette.  My argument is the accusations made by another poster that Lehigh stretches the AI.  Presenting heresay and football grad rates does not make it true.


1.  Lehigh stretches the AI; its football graduation numbers show it.  Prove me wrong.

2.   Lehigh makes up for its AI chicanery by searching out and finding really ugly cheerleaders. I mean fugly to the tenth power.

3.  Lehigh actually was my Safety School.   Most Lafayette students were admitted at both but chose Lafayette over Lehigh.  Lehigh has no legitimate claim of academic superiority over Lafayette, and it's a waste of time to continue to suggest that it does, especially on this Board.  No one here will agree with you.

4.  I don't know what "heresay" means.  Maybe it's a Lehigh thing.  I'll just ignore it.

5.  Since we're casting anecdotal aspersions across the Wide Lafayette Valley, you should know that Lehigh remains a very, very bad place whose top graduates still can't figure out how to clean my gutters in the Spring.  That's a FACT.
Franks Tanks

PL LAX wrote:
Bogus Megapardus wrote:
PL LAX wrote:
Bogus Megapardus wrote:
PL LAX wrote:
 Lehigh is more selective than Lafayette


Lehigh was my Safety School.


Lafayette would be the logical choice for someone who equates "more selective" with "safety school". Rolling Eyes


This board is an excellent place to discuss some (though certainly not all) aspects Lehigh's athletic program in terms of a model of success that Lafayette might wish to follow.  But you might encounter some resistance here if you are suggesting that Lehigh produces superior graduates or is more rigorously academic than is Lafayette (particularly with regard to athletes) - neither of which is true.  

And to repeat - Lehigh indeed was my Safety School.


I didn't knock Lafayette's academics, just stated the FACT that Lehigh is more selective than Lafayette.  Hence, the "safety school" moniker does not apply to Lehigh in regard to anyone applying to Lafayette.  My argument is the accusations made by another poster that Lehigh stretches the AI.  Presenting heresay and football grad rates does not make it true.


Can you provide a better correlation for Lehigh's low grad rates (relatively speaking) for football?  They have been consistently and significantly lower than the rest of the PL sans Fordham, and lower than the Lehigh student body as a whole.  Other PL schools post athlete grad rates that are right in line with the student body.  Lehigh is either admitting less qualified players, or the qualified admits are not working very hard to obtain their degrees.  

Please explain why Lehigh football graduation rates have been much lower than their PL peers for nearly a decade?  I would love to learn your expert opinion
Long Time Fan

PL LAX wrote:
Franks Tanks wrote:
PL LAX wrote:
Franks Tanks wrote:
bison137 wrote:
RichH wrote:
LU has been very lucky with our admin support of AD and the great work of Sterrett to build a good overall program. Now back to football



First of all, congrats to LU and CU for a great season.

To your point, has Sterrett really done anything wonderful - or is the biggest reason for the success simply that LU has far more scholarship money to work with than the rest of the league, with the exception of Colgate, in lax and many other team sports?

Yes, LU has been lucky that the admin has been willing to fund so many scholarships.    At some point I hope BU will be so lucky.


I tend to agree with you. Lehigh's budget and ability to admit student-athletes other schools would not is the key driver to their success.  Money and admission flexibility does not guarantee anything, as Joe and his staff must execute, but he has resouces nobody else in the league can match.


Money is a key factor and Lehigh's success with four Patriot League Championships is proof of that.  As far as Lehigh admitting student athletes that other schools wouldn't, I'd like to know which schools you're referring to and where that information is coming from.  Lehigh is more selective than Lafayette in regard to general admissions and I wouldn't be surprised if that were true for student athletes as well.


It is quite well known within the league that Lehigh stretches the AI.  Each year Lehigh admits athletes that the coaches at Colgate, Lafayette, Bucknell and Holy Cross cannot.  I clearly do not have the admission stats of every athlete to show you hard proof, but check the Lehigh football graduation rates of late.  They are much lower than the other PL schools.  I am not debating if the practice is good or bad for Lehigh, but stating that Lehigh often admits athletes that other PL schools do not and have for many years.  Fans of each school in the PL can provide individual examples to back this up.


Your claim that Lehigh stretches the AI is based on heresay.


Just say "Joe Knight".
Bogus Megapardus

Long Time Fan wrote:

Just say "Joe Knight".


Yep.  Lehigh, the PL "standard bearer," will give full faith and credit for all the courses you took in your Residential Law Care Management major at Podunk Community College in south Texas.  And when caught in the act, Lehigh instinctively blames others.

To me, more than anything, Joe Knight defines "academic selectivity" at Lehigh University.  When someone asks, "how do I get into Lehigh?"  The answer is, "call Joe Knight."
PL LAX

Bogus Megapardus wrote:


1.  Lehigh stretches the AI; its football graduation numbers show it.  Prove me wrong.

2.   Lehigh makes up for its AI chicanery by searching out and finding really ugly cheerleaders. I mean fugly to the tenth power.

3.  Lehigh actually was my Safety School.   Most Lafayette students were admitted at both but chose Lafayette over Lehigh.  Lehigh has no legitimate claim of academic superiority over Lafayette, and it's a waste of time to continue to suggest that it does, especially on this Board.  No one here will agree with you.

4.  I don't know what "heresay" means.  Maybe it's a Lehigh thing.  I'll just ignore it.

5.  Since we're casting anecdotal aspersions across the Wide Lafayette Valley, you should know that Lehigh remains a very, very bad place whose top graduates still can't figure out how to clean my gutters in the Spring.  That's a FACT.



1.  Since it can't be proven that the AI was stretched for those players who didn't graduate, you're wrong.  There is no correlation between the two.

2.  Agreed, but I will also add that Lafayette cheerleaders wouldn't win any beauty contest either.

3.  Lehigh is more selective in regard to general admissions. That's a fact.

4.  Heresay:  Information gathered from other people that cannot be substantiated. Example: FrankTanks comments:  Stating that it is well known by other PL fans that Lehigh stretches the AI because athletes have been denied admittance to their institution.

5. Maybe you can find a Lafayette grad to help out with that.
PL LAX

Franks Tanks wrote:
PL LAX wrote:
Bogus Megapardus wrote:
PL LAX wrote:
Bogus Megapardus wrote:
PL LAX wrote:
 Lehigh is more selective than Lafayette


Lehigh was my Safety School.


Lafayette would be the logical choice for someone who equates "more selective" with "safety school". Rolling Eyes


This board is an excellent place to discuss some (though certainly not all) aspects Lehigh's athletic program in terms of a model of success that Lafayette might wish to follow.  But you might encounter some resistance here if you are suggesting that Lehigh produces superior graduates or is more rigorously academic than is Lafayette (particularly with regard to athletes) - neither of which is true.  

And to repeat - Lehigh indeed was my Safety School.


I didn't knock Lafayette's academics, just stated the FACT that Lehigh is more selective than Lafayette.  Hence, the "safety school" moniker does not apply to Lehigh in regard to anyone applying to Lafayette.  My argument is the accusations made by another poster that Lehigh stretches the AI.  Presenting heresay and football grad rates does not make it true.


Can you provide a better correlation for Lehigh's low grad rates (relatively speaking) for football?  They have been consistently and significantly lower than the rest of the PL sans Fordham, and lower than the Lehigh student body as a whole.  Other PL schools post athlete grad rates that are right in line with the student body.  Lehigh is either admitting less qualified players, or the qualified admits are not working very hard to obtain their degrees.  

Please explain why Lehigh football graduation rates have been much lower than their PL peers for nearly a decade?  I would love to learn your expert opinion


I do not have an expert opinion and neither do you.  You do not know the AI of the players who didn't graduate, you are assuming there is a correlation.
Franks Tanks

PL LAX wrote:
Franks Tanks wrote:
PL LAX wrote:
Bogus Megapardus wrote:
PL LAX wrote:
Bogus Megapardus wrote:
PL LAX wrote:
 Lehigh is more selective than Lafayette


Lehigh was my Safety School.


Lafayette would be the logical choice for someone who equates "more selective" with "safety school". Rolling Eyes


This board is an excellent place to discuss some (though certainly not all) aspects Lehigh's athletic program in terms of a model of success that Lafayette might wish to follow.  But you might encounter some resistance here if you are suggesting that Lehigh produces superior graduates or is more rigorously academic than is Lafayette (particularly with regard to athletes) - neither of which is true.  

And to repeat - Lehigh indeed was my Safety School.


I didn't knock Lafayette's academics, just stated the FACT that Lehigh is more selective than Lafayette.  Hence, the "safety school" moniker does not apply to Lehigh in regard to anyone applying to Lafayette.  My argument is the accusations made by another poster that Lehigh stretches the AI.  Presenting heresay and football grad rates does not make it true.


Can you provide a better correlation for Lehigh's low grad rates (relatively speaking) for football?  They have been consistently and significantly lower than the rest of the PL sans Fordham, and lower than the Lehigh student body as a whole.  Other PL schools post athlete grad rates that are right in line with the student body.  Lehigh is either admitting less qualified players, or the qualified admits are not working very hard to obtain their degrees.  

Please explain why Lehigh football graduation rates have been much lower than their PL peers for nearly a decade?  I would love to learn your expert opinion


I do not have an expert opinion and neither do you.  You do not know the AI of the players who didn't graduate, you are assuming there is a correlation.


So what factor then is responsible for the fact that Lehigh football players graduate at a rate significantly lower than their classmates, and significantly lower than their peers at other PL institutions?

Having this occur one or two years can be explained as an aberration and some recruiting mistakes or bad luck.  When it happens for 7-8 years in a row it is a major trend.  

I see two major reasons.

1-Some Lehigh football players are less qualified than their classmates and peers at other schools

2- Lehigh football players don't work as hard to obtain their degree

What other explanations are plausible for nearly a decade of sub-par graduation rates?
cr

I am neutral but it is a fact that Lehigh has much lower grad rate for football players.  If I were the Lehigh administration I would work to raise that number to the PL average and put Coach Coen on notice to do so.
Gate alum

I can't remember what the original topic of this thread was ?

When do we get to Fordham, the pride of the P.L. ?
Bogus Megapardus

Gate alum wrote:

When do we get to Fordham, the pride of the P.L. ?


Highly unfair to Fordham fans.  They have never heard of "heresay," either.  This has to be a Lehigh-only thing.  My best guess is that it means, "if you "say" it "here" loudly enough and often enough, it must be real.

Indeed - "proximity, volume and repetition" - the winning argument strategy of ex-wives, politicians, community activists and car salesmen everywhere.  Truth and accuracy not required.
PL LAX

[quote="Franks Tanks:25156"

So what factor then is responsible for the fact that Lehigh football players graduate at a rate significantly lower than their classmates, and significantly lower than their peers at other PL institutions?

Having this occur one or two years can be explained as an aberration and some recruiting mistakes or bad luck.  When it happens for 7-8 years in a row it is a major trend.  

I see two major reasons.

1-Some Lehigh football players are less qualified than their classmates and peers at other schools

2- Lehigh football players don't work as hard to obtain their degree

What other explanations are plausible for nearly a decade of sub-par graduation rates?[/quote]

Some other reasons may be that a player is homesick, heavy workload or isn't happy with the football program or his role on the team.  Recently QB JB Clark left when he learned he wouldn't be starting.  He left because he wanted to transfer to a school where he would.  Whatever the reason may be for the lower football grad rates, it does not prove  that Lehigh stretches the AI as you suggest.
Bogus Megapardus

PL LAX wrote:

It does not prove that Lehigh stretches the AI as you suggest.



Yes it does.  Most certainly it proves it.  In a scientific, closed-environment control group study involving one hundred repetitions of the hypothesis, Lehigh stretched the AI in eighty-eight iterations.  There are the facts.

The findings will be published in the Assa Packer Journal of Scientific and Pragmatic Ineptitude (Lehigh University Press: 2012).
Franks Tanks

PL LAX wrote:
[quote="Franks Tanks:25156"

So what factor then is responsible for the fact that Lehigh football players graduate at a rate significantly lower than their classmates, and significantly lower than their peers at other PL institutions?

Having this occur one or two years can be explained as an aberration and some recruiting mistakes or bad luck.  When it happens for 7-8 years in a row it is a major trend.  

I see two major reasons.

1-Some Lehigh football players are less qualified than their classmates and peers at other schools

2- Lehigh football players don't work as hard to obtain their degree

What other explanations are plausible for nearly a decade of sub-par graduation rates?


Some other reasons may be that a player is homesick, heavy workload or isn't happy with the football program or his role on the team.  Recently QB JB Clark left when he learned he wouldn't be starting.  He left because he wanted to transfer to a school where he would.  Whatever the reason may be for the lower football grad rates, it does not prove  that Lehigh stretches the AI as you suggest.[/quote]

Every other program in the Patriot League has players that experience the same emotions and hardships as Lehigh players. Every other school has guys not satisfied with playing time. Yet year after year the graduation rate is well below the league peer schools.  This cannot be explained away as a series of unfortunate events.
Bogus Megapardus

RichH wrote:

Both are excellent.


RichH - I think you know me and by brand of humor well enough to know that I'm merely "welcoming" a Lehigh fan to this Humble and Esteemed Message Board (one who who only wishes he could have been admitted to Lafayette, of course).   Rolling Eyes

What I'm really waiting on is for MplsBison to show up and start trolling in her own special way.  So I guess I'm just practicing.

If our Board Founder and Moderator, the great Maroon, determines that I'm hijacking too many lacrosse threads, he'll let me know and I will honor his wishes.
RichH

Furhter repetition of anecdotal stories does not bolster claim Ft , It merely repeats it.

Joe Knight not handled well by LU but he did graduate.

Bogie,, a bit over the top by you and others. The ineptitude of LC athleticsis not Lu's concern or problem. Whether LU may accept more borderline kids than LC not the issue, is it.  LU has maintained its identity and academic standing , while excelling in athletics.Can LC claim the same?  LC accepts losing across the board while at the same time trying to morph itself into Bennington clone.Lu may have been your safety school some decades back, which reflects on your personal taste then but has little , if anythihg to do with the current standings of the 2 schools. Would you make the same choice today? I am not knocking your original decision back then, a real Q as to wht LC is now. As much as we slam onw another, it is important to us Squawks as we will forever be joined at the hip. Never want to see Pards go the way of Gettysburg.
Bogus Megapardus

Returning to topic - The Maryland - Lehigh game actually was terrific, for anyone who saw it. That, and the Syracuse - Duke game, were the best games of the weekend.  Lehigh showed some excellent coaching in particular in coming back from a 6-1 deficit.  

What Lehigh did defensively (at least to my eyes) was to recognize and to disrupt the Terp's "escape routes" and to disallow the wrap-around shot from behind the goal, while at the same time disrupting the Attack's outlet to a Middie whose mark remained in position and refused to be drawn away from his responsibility, once the adjustments were made.

Lehigh's defensive adjustments kept them from reeling and from making overly-aggressive offensive mistakes.  They remained patient.  I was concerned, though, that Lehigh became a little too patient offensively once they had a 9-7 lead, even to the point of successive stall warnings.  Maybe they should have taken a couple more shots, or maybe they just trusted their defense.

Then, with 10 seconds left, the coup de grace came as Maryland's Joe Cummings head faked and got past Lehigh long pole Ty Souders for the wrap-around.  Souders is a good Defenseman but he really whiffed on that one.  ESPN kept showing it, over and over.
Franks Tanks

RichH wrote:
Furhter repetition of anecdotal stories does not bolster claim Ft , It merely repeats it.

Joe Knight not handled well by LU but he did graduate.

Bogie,, a bit over the top by you and others. The ineptitude of LC athleticsis not Lu's concern or problem. Whether LU may accept more borderline kids than LC not the issue, is it.  LU has maintained its identity and academic standing , while excelling in athletics.Can LC claim the same?  LC accepts losing across the board while at the same time trying to morph itself into Bennington clone.Lu may have been your safety school some decades back, which reflects on your personal taste then but has little , if anythihg to do with the current standings of the 2 schools. Would you make the same choice today? I am not knocking your original decision back then, a real Q as to wht LC is now. As much as we slam onw another, it is important to us Squawks as we will forever be joined at the hip. Never want to see Pards go the way of Gettysburg.


What started all of this was the assertion that Lehigh is finding success due to money, quality leadership, and their willingness to accept some borderline athletes who are difference makers. Personally I believe the money and quality leadership points are more important, but the final factor cannot be completely discounted.

Also it is not uncommon for students to attend one school over another, despite incremental differences in admission stats or rankings.  Lafayette and Lehigh have seen common applicants for decades if not centuries, and will continue to do so.  Some will chose Lehigh, and others Lafayette, just as students have done for many years.
Gate alum

Anyone in their right mind would have bet on UMass if they were told these facts about the game...


"...that UMass would hold Peter Baum under his typical ppg average, that UMass would win 66% of the faceoffs, and that penalty minutes would be a wash...and that Colgate would provide sophomore Conor Murphy his first-ever start in the goal in this first round NCAA tourament game...."

That's a bet even a diehard Gate fan would make for UMass.
RichH

Franks Tanks wrote:
RichH wrote:
Furhter repetition of anecdotal stories does not bolster claim Ft , It merely repeats it.

Joe Knight not handled well by LU but he did graduate.

Bogie,, a bit over the top by you and others. The ineptitude of LC athleticsis not Lu's concern or problem. Whether LU may accept more borderline kids than LC not the issue, is it.  LU has maintained its identity and academic standing , while excelling in athletics.Can LC claim the same?  LC accepts losing across the board while at the same time trying to morph itself into Bennington clone.Lu may have been your safety school some decades back, which reflects on your personal taste then but has little , if anythihg to do with the current standings of the 2 schools. Would you make the same choice today? I am not knocking your original decision back then, a real Q as to wht LC is now. As much as we slam onw another, it is important to us Squawks as we will forever be joined at the hip. Never want to see Pards go the way of Gettysburg.


What started all of this was the assertion that Lehigh is finding success due to money, quality leadership, and their willingness to accept some borderline athletes who are difference makers. Personally I believe the money and quality leadership points are more important, but the final factor cannot be completely discounted.

Also it is not uncommon for students to attend one school over another, despite incremental differences in admission stats or rankings.  Lafayette and Lehigh has seen common applicants for decades if not centuries, and will continue to do so.  Some will chose Lehigh, and other Lafayette, just as students have done for many years.



Yup Very Happy  and hopefully will continue for my grandkids.
RichH

Bogus Megapardus wrote:
Returning to topic - The Maryland - Lehigh game actually was terrific, for anyone who saw it. That, and the Syracuse - Duke game, were the best games of the weekend.  Lehigh showed some excellent coaching in particular in coming back from a 6-1 deficit.  

What Lehigh did defensively (at least to my eyes) was to recognize and to disrupt the Terp's "escape routes" and to disallow the wrap-around shot from behind the goal, while at the same time disrupting the Attack's outlet to a Middie whose mark remained in position and refused to be drawn away from his responsibility, once the adjustments were made.

Lehigh's defensive adjustments kept them from reeling and from making overly-aggressive offensive mistakes.  They remained patient.  I was concerned, though, that Lehigh became a little too patient offensively once they had a 9-7 lead, even to the point of successive stall warnings.  Maybe they should have taken a couple more shots, or maybe they just trusted their defense.

Then, with 10 seconds left, the coup de grace came as Maryland's Joe Cummings head faked and got past Lehigh long pole Ty Souders for the wrap-around.  Souders is a good Defenseman but he really whiffed on that one.  ESPN kept showing it, over and over.



As a close D, can never be indecisive he was  and therefore late to stop Cummings. Hell of a game tho. A  heartbreaker.
Bogus Megapardus

RichH wrote:
Would you make the same choice today?


Yes, I would make the same choice - and many still do.  A substantial number of Lafayette's incoming freshman also were admitted to Lehigh.  In my case, a couple of decades ago, my choices were Brown, Penn, Lafayette and Lehigh.  I was a wait list at Princeton.  The Ivy League certainly did not have the cachet that it does today.  You would be correct in that most of today's students at either of our schools have the same choices.

Athletic success in the PL, combined with the AI and strict academic rigor, could well help trim the sails in our favor once again.  A national lacrosse championship for a PL school (one not named Army or Navy) would help tremendously.  Both Colgate and Lehigh put teams on the field this year that would be good enough to win it all.
RichH

Bogus Megapardus wrote:
RichH wrote:
Would you make the same choice today?


Yes, I would make the same choice - and many still do.  A substantial number of Lafayette's incoming freshman also were admitted to Lehigh.  In my case, a couple of decades ago, my choices were Brown, Penn, Lafayette and Lehigh.  I was a wait list at Princeton.  The Ivy League certainly did not have the cachet that it does today.  You would be correct in that most of today's students at either of our schools have the same choices.

Athletic success in the PL, combined with the AI and strict academic rigor, could well help trim the sails in our favor once again.  A national lacrosse championship for a PL school (one not named Army or Navy) would help tremendously.  Both Colgate and Lehigh put teams on the field this year that would be good enough to win it all.



True enuf. I am a few decades in front of you. My schools were Penn, Brown,Bucknell, Lehigh also wait listed at princeton. LU was my safety school  SSSHHHH. Laughing Loved Leckonby , hated Penn so here I am. Never regretted a minute of it. Agree back then IL was not the be all and end all that many see it as today
bison137

PL LAX wrote:
Franks Tanks wrote:


So what factor then is responsible for the fact that Lehigh football players graduate at a rate significantly lower than their classmates, and significantly lower than their peers at other PL institutions?

Having this occur one or two years can be explained as an aberration and some recruiting mistakes or bad luck.  When it happens for 7-8 years in a row it is a major trend.  

I see two major reasons.

1-Some Lehigh football players are less qualified than their classmates and peers at other schools

2- Lehigh football players don't work as hard to obtain their degree

What other explanations are plausible for nearly a decade of sub-par graduation rates?


Some other reasons may be that a player is homesick, heavy workload or isn't happy with the football program or his role on the team.  Recently QB JB Clark left when he learned he wouldn't be starting.  He left because he wanted to transfer to a school where he would.  Whatever the reason may be for the lower football grad rates, it does not prove  that Lehigh stretches the AI as you suggest.



It's interesting to look at the PL football graduation rates when measured by the NCAA's graduation success rate (GSR).    That metric eliminates outgoing transfers from the equation entirely - assuming they left in good academic standing.     The trend in Lehigh's football rate using that metric - where transfers don't count against a school - is troubling.    Here are the latest six GSR's for each PL school - each of which uses a 4-year rolling average:

Bucknell - 95%, 91, 90, 91, 90, 95%
Colgate - 91%, 90, 96, 98, 96, 97%
Fordham - 87, 82, 82, 81, 76, 80
Georgetown - 98, 97, 95, 90, 80, 80
Holy Cross - 91%, 94, 93, 91, 92, 92
Lafayette - 93, 93, 92, 95, 96, 95
Lehigh - 94%, 91, 87, 76, 71, 70%

Remember that the above does not penalize a school for any transfers who would have been academically eligible the following semester had they stayed.   Since the NCAA gives each incoming class six years to graduate, these rates are a bit dated.    Hopefully Lehigh has made significant progress in the past few years in bringing academic performance up to acceptable levels.
Bogus Megapardus

I hope we all can agree that the academic mission of the PL is paramount.  That's what defines the league.  Athletic scholarships should be a tool that is used to ensure the integrity of those standards.  As football scholarships take hold, let's hope that none of us falls below 90% - ever again.
Gate alum

Bogus Megapardus wrote:
I hope we all can agree that the academic mission of the PL is paramount.  That's what defines the league.  Athletic scholarships should be a tool that is used to ensure the integrity of those standards.  As football scholarships take hold, let's hope that none of us falls below 90% - ever again.


Agreed.
In addition to f.b. scholarships, there are two other initiatives that can make the P.L. a very attractive magnet for high quality student athletes from around the country:
1. The likely expansion of the FCS playoffs to 24 teams.
2. The likely increase to 7 wins for FBS bowl eligibility ( incl. 1 FCS win )

Over time, the P.L. will develop a niche for attracting high character individuals who want to play P.L. football and get a top-tier education through a scholarship. The addition of FBS games into the schedule ( 2. above ) and becoming a two-bid team in the playoffs (1 above ) will enhance our deep traditions.The P.L. will be a great story for recruiting. It will be a gradual transition.
Pard4Life

Lehigh's coach was ESPN2's co-host for today's lacrosse action.  Flipping between the UMD-JHU game, I heard the crew allude to that Lehigh's HC and his staff traveled to U Denver to learn some schemes from Bill Tierney during the preseason.  No doubt it played into their success this season.
Pard4Life

Gate alum wrote:
Bogus Megapardus wrote:
I hope we all can agree that the academic mission of the PL is paramount.  That's what defines the league.  Athletic scholarships should be a tool that is used to ensure the integrity of those standards.  As football scholarships take hold, let's hope that none of us falls below 90% - ever again.


Agreed.
In addition to f.b. scholarships, there are two other initiatives that can make the P.L. a very attractive magnet for high quality student athletes from around the country:
1. The likely expansion of the FCS playoffs to 24 teams.
2. The likely increase to 7 wins for FBS bowl eligibility ( incl. 1 FCS win )

Over time, the P.L. will develop a niche for attracting high character individuals who want to play P.L. football and get a top-tier education through a scholarship. The addition of FBS games into the schedule ( 2. above ) and becoming a two-bid team in the playoffs (1 above ) will enhance our deep traditions.The P.L. will be a great story for recruiting. It will be a gradual transition.


Yes, most of us are football nuts and it's the priority around here, myself included.  But to be honest, if we wanted to get the biggest bang for our buck in athletics with regard to name recognition and prestige, the sports are men's basketball and men's lacrosse.    

I don't know how many more alumni we can get to step-up, but if we can fully fund men's and women's lax with schollies, it would place us in great shape.  Plus, a new, dynamic coach.
Bogus Megapardus

Wow.  Maryland stuffed Hopkins today, 11-5.  Makes me think that Lehigh could have beaten them as well (just as Navy did in the regular season).
Gate alum

Bogus Megapardus wrote:
Wow.  Maryland stuffed Hopkins today, 11-5.  Makes me think that Lehigh could have beaten them as well (just as Navy did in the regular season).

The Terps should more accurately be called the Chamelions. There were three different teams that showed up for the contests against 'Gate, Lehigh and Hoppy.
Lafalum

Pard4Life wrote:
Gate alum wrote:
Bogus Megapardus wrote:
I hope we all can agree that the academic mission of the PL is paramount.  That's what defines the league.  Athletic scholarships should be a tool that is used to ensure the integrity of those standards.  As football scholarships take hold, let's hope that none of us falls below 90% - ever again.


Agreed.
In addition to f.b. scholarships, there are two other initiatives that can make the P.L. a very attractive magnet for high quality student athletes from around the country:
1. The likely expansion of the FCS playoffs to 24 teams.
2. The likely increase to 7 wins for FBS bowl eligibility ( incl. 1 FCS win )

Over time, the P.L. will develop a niche for attracting high character individuals who want to play P.L. football and get a top-tier education through a scholarship. The addition of FBS games into the schedule ( 2. above ) and becoming a two-bid team in the playoffs (1 above ) will enhance our deep traditions.The P.L. will be a great story for recruiting. It will be a gradual transition.


Yes, most of us are football nuts and it's the priority around here, myself included.  But to be honest, if we wanted to get the biggest bang for our buck in athletics with regard to name recognition and prestige, the sports are men's basketball and men's lacrosse.    

I don't know how many more alumni we can get to step-up, but if we can fully fund men's and women's lax with schollies, it would place us in great shape.  Plus, a new, dynamic coach.


I have heard that as a result of football schollies W Lax will have a full complement of scholarships.
Bogus Megapardus

Lafalum wrote:


I have heard that as a result of football schollies W Lax will have a full complement of scholarships.


That makes sense.  Improvement in the women's program will have a positive effect on the men's program.  Don't hold your breath waiting for men's lax scholarships, though.  It'll never happen.  But again - we don't need them to win.  We need coaching and to be a place where kids want to play.
Pard4Life

Ok, so if you are a lacrosse recruit with outstanding ability but not recruited by a major program, would you rather:

a) Play for a top or middle of the road program from a weak DI conference
b) play for a top DIII program
c) play for a bottom feeder in one of the top two lax conferences - think LC.
Bogus Megapardus

So it's Maryland vs. Loyola in the finals tomorrow - 1:00 PM on ESPN at Gillette Stadium.  There will be 45,000+ in attendance.

Of course, Colgate beat Maryland this year and Lehigh lost to Maryland by one point on a goal with less than 10 seconds left.

Verdict - the PL can play with anyone.  With three of the seven PL teams still in the Top 20, our time will come very soon.

Lafayette coach search committee - please take note.
Bogus Megapardus

General question, if anyone knows - why is it that Loyola plays lacrosse in the ECAC and not in the MAAC?  The MAAC sponsors lacrosse, and Loyola is a full member of the MAAC.

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