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LeopardBall10

Possible change to D1 set up?

There has been a lot of talk on AGS over the last few days about a CBS sports article that contained this:

Quote:
NCAA to examine Division I model in August
The NCAA will hold a summit Aug. 4-5 to strategize about the future of Division I.

Members of the board of directors and various committees will participate and are studying four areas:
(1) The Division I amateur model, including key features of athletes' experience and the use of athletic resources;
(2) How college sports should assist students, including academic achievement and appropriate time demands;
(3) How college sports should help students prepare for life after college, including those who want to pursue professional careers and the Olympics;
(4) How Division I should operate, including examining the current subdivision structure and the role of conferences.

Former national security adviser Tom Donilin, now vice chair of the law firm O'Melveny & Meyers, has been working with each of the planning groups in preparation for the summit. O'Melveny & Meyers is representing the NCAA in a lawsuit brought against the association and the University of North Carolina over the academic scandal at North Carolina.


Obviously some of the big dogs in FCS could see more change than the Patriot League as a possible 3 tier system emerges (P5, mix of the G5 and top FCS, and The rest of FCS and any G5 members who drop down), but there is also talk of repealing or changing the Dayton rule. Akron has already had the board and president admit that they spend over $8 million a year on their terrible football team in a recent ohio.com article. The articel says that moving down to FCS may be a viable option.

So, my question is how will any of this affect the Patriot League? Can you see anyone trying to leave if they change the Dayton rule? If a 3 tier system is a reality and the top FCS teams move up (and take on more scholarships) who is left behind that may want to join the PL? A lot of people seem to think the 'Nova wouldn't make the financial commitment to move anywhere, so they and W&M may be left in the cold in the CAA gets poached.
Bogus Megapardus

Re: Possible change to D1 set up?

LeopardBall10 wrote:
There has been a lot of talk on AGS over the last few days about a CBS sports article that contained this:

Quote:
NCAA to examine Division I model in August
The NCAA will hold a summit Aug. 4-5 to strategize about the future of Division I.

Members of the board of directors and various committees will participate and are studying four areas:
(1) The Division I amateur model, including key features of athletes' experience and the use of athletic resources;
(2) How college sports should assist students, including academic achievement and appropriate time demands;
(3) How college sports should help students prepare for life after college, including those who want to pursue professional careers and the Olympics;
(4) How Division I should operate, including examining the current subdivision structure and the role of conferences.

Former national security adviser Tom Donilin, now vice chair of the law firm O'Melveny & Meyers, has been working with each of the planning groups in preparation for the summit. O'Melveny & Meyers is representing the NCAA in a lawsuit brought against the association and the University of North Carolina over the academic scandal at North Carolina.


Obviously some of the big dogs in FCS could see more change than the Patriot League as a possible 3 tier system emerges (P5, mix of the G5 and top FCS, and The rest of FCS and any G5 members who drop down), but there is also talk of repealing or changing the Dayton rule. Akron has already had the board and president admit that they spend over $8 million a year on their terrible football team in a recent ohio.com article. The articel says that moving down to FCS may be a viable option.

So, my question is how will any of this affect the Patriot League? Can you see anyone trying to leave if they change the Dayton rule? If a 3 tier system is a reality and the top FCS teams move up (and take on more scholarships) who is left behind that may want to join the PL? A lot of people seem to think the 'Nova wouldn't make the financial commitment to move anywhere, so they and W&M may be left in the cold in the CAA gets poached.


Short and sweet - the Ivy and PL have the luxury of not having to give a rat's ass about what the rest of Division I does.  We were there long before, and we'll be there long after.  Smart planning, hard work and a steady hand have kept us in that enviable position.


EDIT - Yes, likely it will come to the point where Nova and/or W&M come begging.  And when that point comes I will relish watching them bend over and squeal.
Lafalum

Totally agree with Bogus on this. However, could this mean that certain sports are treated differently or are you typecast depending on your football and basketball profile? Villanova is a good example as is Georgetown for example. In effect there is a bifurcation by sport now for those schools regarding basketball and the rest of their athletic program. Can a league accept a two tier program??

I could see the ACC, SEC and Big Ten saying to all their schools and  sports, your are either big time or not and no playing down in any sports. ( I think the Big Ten discourages that right now in football.) I could see them trying to make March Madness an big school show.
Bogus Megapardus

Lafalum wrote:
I could see them trying to make March Madness an big school show.


I think the bball tourney would become about as exciting as the typical minor bowl game.  Nobody would care.  Seriously, people would watch only the Final Four.  I mean, does anybody really watch the Poinsettia Bowl?  The Camellia Bowl?  The Famous Idaho Potato Bowl?  

To me, March is all about the chance to witness upsets like Bucknell and Lehigh have posted in the recent past.

Everyone likes to see a little school take down the big dogs.  But if the NCAA Division I Men's Basketball Tournament becomes nothing but a steady diet of the fourth-place ACC team versus the seventh-place Big East team versus the fifth-place Pac-12 team or whatever . . . I'd rather watch pro bass fishing.  Or bowling.
Lafalum

Bogus Megapardus wrote:
Lafalum wrote:
I could see them trying to make March Madness an big school show.


I think the bball tourney would become about as exciting as the typical minor bowl game.  Nobody would care.  Seriously, people would watch only the Final Four.  I mean, does anybody really watch the Poinsettia Bowl?  The Camellia Bowl?  The Famous Idaho Potato Bowl?  

To me, March is all about the chance to witness upsets like Bucknell and Lehigh have posted in the recent past.

Everyone likes to see a little school take down the big dogs.  But if the NCAA Division I Men's Basketball Tournament becomes nothing but a steady diet of the fourth-place ACC team versus the seventh-place Big East team versus the fifth-place Pac-12 team or whatever . . . I'd rather watch pro bass fishing.  Or bowling.


Couldn't agree more but it is all about the money for the big 5 conferences.
bethlehempard

The PL, Ivies and like-minded schools could band together and create a super-conference of 30 or so schools for real students and tell the NCAA to get lost as far as football is concerned. The leagues would remain and a playoff could be held.
Such a division could extend from New England to the Carolinas easily.
The BCS is a cartel and in the story provided above "help" and "assist" are merely code words for "pay."
Institutional corruption is the worst and the BCS is permeated by it.
DFW HOYA

bethlehempard wrote:
The PL, Ivies and like-minded schools could band together and create a super-conference of 30 or so schools for real students and tell the NCAA to get lost as far as football is concerned.


I'm tying to come up with a list of 30...

Ivy
Patriot
The Usual Suspects (UR, W&M, Nova)
VMI and The Citadel?
Davidson, Furman, Elon?

Well, that's 23. Anyone else?
flyfisher

Sounds like a program UNC would promote. Chump academics.

Bogus is pretty much on. PL is about academics first, for the most part. Fordham bends those rules a little. I continue to learn a lot more about Lafayette and where athletics fit. Academics come first and there isn't a close second. Academics goals and achievements drive out athletic program.
flyfisher

Re: Possible change to D1 set up?

Bogus Megapardus wrote:
LeopardBall10 wrote:
There has been a lot of talk on AGS over the last few days about a CBS sports article that contained this:

Quote:
NCAA to examine Division I model in August
The NCAA will hold a summit Aug. 4-5 to strategize about the future of Division I.

Members of the board of directors and various committees will participate and are studying four areas:
(1) The Division I amateur model, including key features of athletes' experience and the use of athletic resources;
(2) How college sports should assist students, including academic achievement and appropriate time demands;
(3) How college sports should help students prepare for life after college, including those who want to pursue professional careers and the Olympics;
(4) How Division I should operate, including examining the current subdivision structure and the role of conferences.

Former national security adviser Tom Donilin, now vice chair of the law firm O'Melveny & Meyers, has been working with each of the planning groups in preparation for the summit. O'Melveny & Meyers is representing the NCAA in a lawsuit brought against the association and the University of North Carolina over the academic scandal at North Carolina.


Obviously some of the big dogs in FCS could see more change than the Patriot League as a possible 3 tier system emerges (P5, mix of the G5 and top FCS, and The rest of FCS and any G5 members who drop down), but there is also talk of repealing or changing the Dayton rule. Akron has already had the board and president admit that they spend over $8 million a year on their terrible football team in a recent ohio.com article. The articel says that moving down to FCS may be a viable option.

So, my question is how will any of this affect the Patriot League? Can you see anyone trying to leave if they change the Dayton rule? If a 3 tier system is a reality and the top FCS teams move up (and take on more scholarships) who is left behind that may want to join the PL? A lot of people seem to think the 'Nova wouldn't make the financial commitment to move anywhere, so they and W&M may be left in the cold in the CAA gets poached.


Short and sweet - the Ivy and PL have the luxury of not having to give a rat's ass about what the rest of Division I does.  We were there long before, and we'll be there long after.  Smart planning, hard work and a steady hand have kept us in that enviable position.


EDIT - Yes, likely it will come to the point where Nova and/or W&M come begging.  And when that point comes I will relish watching them bend over and squeal.


Why do you think Nova and W&M will come begging? Or a Richmond? It would be Richmomd before anyone. They are in a great conference. If anything some of the Socon members would join them like Elon did.
Bogus Megapardus

Re: Possible change to D1 set up?

flyfisher wrote:
It would be Richmomd before anyone.


Rightly or wrongly, I suspect some PL decision makers might have "issues" with certain aspects of Richmond's institutional history.
DFW HOYA

Re: Possible change to D1 set up?

Bogus Megapardus wrote:
flyfisher wrote:
It would be Richmomd before anyone.


Rightly or wrongly, I suspect some PL decision makers might have "issues" with certain aspects of Richmond's institutional history.


Richmond was founded as a Baptist seminary. So was Bucknell, for that matter.
Bogus Megapardus

Re: Possible change to D1 set up?

DFW HOYA wrote:
Bogus Megapardus wrote:
flyfisher wrote:
It would be Richmomd before anyone.


Rightly or wrongly, I suspect some PL decision makers might have "issues" with certain aspects of Richmond's institutional history.


Richmond was founded as a Baptist seminary. So was Bucknell, for that matter.


Colgate as well - actually Colgate enkindled Bucknell (much as Lafayette begot Lehigh). They have a rhyme of some sort about "Thirteen Baptists."
Tribe4SF

Re: Possible change to D1 set up?

Bogus Megapardus wrote:


EDIT - Yes, likely it will come to the point where Nova and/or W&M come begging.  And when that point comes I will relish watching them bend over and squeal.


Not sure where the animosity comes from, but don't hold your breath. We have a new strategic plan for athletics, and the money is already coming in. Additional $1.2 million to our football scholarship endowment just two weeks ago. $4.5 million to women's basketball last month. If the new split occurs, look for us to remain in the second highest level, whatever that may be.

http://www.tribeathletics.com//pd...amp;DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=25100
Lafalum

Re: Possible change to D1 set up?

Tribe4SF wrote:
Bogus Megapardus wrote:


EDIT - Yes, likely it will come to the point where Nova and/or W&M come begging.  And when that point comes I will relish watching them bend over and squeal.


Not sure where the animosity comes from, but don't hold your breath. We have a new strategic plan for athletics, and the money is already coming in. Additional $1.2 million to our football scholarship endowment just two weeks ago. $4.5 million to women's basketball last month. If the new split occurs, look for us to remain in the second highest level, whatever that may be.

http://www.tribeathletics.com//pd...amp;DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=25100

That is an excellent letter by the W and M president. Bruce ( a W and M alum)should forward that to our BOT and President. I would love to see a letter like that to me!!
LeopardBall10

Re: Possible change to D1 set up?

Bogus Megapardus wrote:
Short and sweet - the Ivy and PL have the luxury of not having to give a rat's ass about what the rest of Division I does.  We were there long before, and we'll be there long after.  Smart planning, hard work and a steady hand have kept us in that enviable position.


EDIT - Yes, likely it will come to the point where Nova and/or W&M come begging.  And when that point comes I will relish watching them bend over and squeal.


I don't disagree with you, or most of the other posts for that matter, about the PL and Ivy "being". But I wonder what the next evolutionary steps might be for both, if there are any. So no one can think of a scenario that may "force" either or both conferences to join a new second tier? I do think that whatever happens both teams end up at the same place for the same reasons.

And as far as Nova, W&M, or Richmond for that matter if a new second tier does develop as a cross between the bottom G5 and the top FCS we could see the likes of JMU, Towsond, Albany, Deleware, Chatty, W. Car., etc. stay in that second tier. Like Tribe4SF said, a lot of the CAA and SoCon are going to want to stay at that level, even if it means increasing the number of scholarships to play with the G5. So, who doesn't want to make the jump? Who gets left behind that the PL tries to add? Would we ever think about another football only member?

And then the Dayton rule, what if that gets repealed? Does Hopkins football try to move up? Does anyone (Gtown) look to move down?
LeopardBall10

Re: Possible change to D1 set up?

Tribe4SF wrote:


Not sure where the animosity comes from, but don't hold your breath. We have a new strategic plan for athletics, and the money is already coming in. Additional $1.2 million to our football scholarship endowment just two weeks ago. $4.5 million to women's basketball last month. If the new split occurs, look for us to remain in the second highest level, whatever that may be.

http://www.tribeathletics.com//pd...amp;DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=25100


No animosity here, I would love to see Laf and W&M play in the same league, but I don't think that will ever really happen. Mostly because of exactly what that letter says. What a great letter and a great report. Do you think that committee is for hire at other institutions? Would love to see the Lafayette report.
Tribe4SF

Re: Possible change to D1 set up?

LeopardBall10 wrote:
Tribe4SF wrote:


Not sure where the animosity comes from, but don't hold your breath. We have a new strategic plan for athletics, and the money is already coming in. Additional $1.2 million to our football scholarship endowment just two weeks ago. $4.5 million to women's basketball last month. If the new split occurs, look for us to remain in the second highest level, whatever that may be.

http://www.tribeathletics.com//pd...amp;DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=25100


No animosity here, I would love to see Laf and W&M play in the same league, but I don't think that will ever really happen. Mostly because of exactly what that letter says. What a great letter and a great report. Do you think that committee is for hire at other institutions? Would love to see the Lafayette report.


Don't know that you'd want to pay the rate to hire that group of people. Two members of our Board of Visitors, two former football players, and top staff and faculty minds. Our leadership recognizes the value of athletics, and our President has been eloquent in expressing that value.
Bogus Megapardus

Re: Possible change to D1 set up?

Tribe4SF wrote:
Not sure where the animosity comes from, but don't hold your breath. We have a new strategic plan for athletics, and the money is already coming in. Additional $1.2 million to our football scholarship endowment just two weeks ago. $4.5 million to women's basketball last month. If the new split occurs, look for us to remain in the second highest level, whatever that may be.


No animosity at all, Tribe4SF.  Seriously, this is the Patriot League way of treating W&M like family! Lehigh would be offended if we didn't relish seeing them bend over and squeal (and plea for another).  Colgate, Holy Cross, Georgetown . . . they all take it on the chin here and they dish it right back.  Love 'em all.  

Honestly, if we didn't like the Tribe so much we'd just shut up and smile pleasantly as if you were Wagner or Sacred Heart or Albany or something.
Bogus Megapardus

Lafayette will remain at the same level as its traditional opponents, I'd imagine.

I suspect the there will be a top tier for the Power schools, a bottom tier for modified "Dayton Rule" schools that is nominally DI but is non-scholarship or less-than-full scholarship and a middle tier for everyone else - lower FBS and "committed" full-scholarship FCS.  Ivy would be middle tier but might choose third tier.

It all seems silly to me though.
Tribe4SF

Re: Possible change to D1 set up?

Bogus Megapardus wrote:
Tribe4SF wrote:
Not sure where the animosity comes from, but don't hold your breath. We have a new strategic plan for athletics, and the money is already coming in. Additional $1.2 million to our football scholarship endowment just two weeks ago. $4.5 million to women's basketball last month. If the new split occurs, look for us to remain in the second highest level, whatever that may be.


No animosity at all, Tribe4SF.  Seriously, this is the Patriot League way of treating W&M like family! Lehigh would be offended if we didn't relish seeing them bend over and squeal (and plea for another).  Colgate, Holy Cross, Georgetown . . . they all take it on the chin here and they dish it right back.  Love 'em all.  

Honestly, if we didn't like the Tribe so much we'd just shut up and smile pleasantly as if you were Wagner or Sacred Heart or Albany or something.


NOW I feel welcome!

And if the day comes that we deem to consider the PL, we'll let your presidents know whether to grab their ankles or not as we dictate the terms of our affiliation. Wink
bethlehempard

As for academics ... Anybody who was on campus around 1979-80 might remember a calculus final that was so difficult a few students resorted to mild vandalism afterward and a few guys stuck a new appendage on the Lafayette statue that overlooks Easton. A vulgar appendage no less.
That's what we are. That's what we still are.
On my next trip to Paris I will get to the Lafayette tomb at Picpus Cemetery and leave a few grams of our campus soil on the spot as I left a few grams of U.S. soil at the AMBC cemetery northwest of Verdun a few years ago.
True. Academics are first no matter what.
That is our pride. There is no other way.
Bogus Megapardus

Re: Possible change to D1 set up?

Tribe4SF wrote:
NOW I feel welcome!

And if the day comes that we deem to consider the PL, we'll let your presidents know whether to grab their ankles or not as we dictate the terms of our affiliation. Wink

Fortunately, the more brazen ankle-grabbers at Lafayette (the last two presidents in particular) have moved on to positions more suitable to their penchant.  Rolling Eyes

Our current president will want to know how W&M proposes to integrate STEM with nineteenth century Victorian realism in the locker room, and whether this guy

intends "perform" with The Marquis at halftime.  Could be a deal-breaker.
Tribe4SF

Re: Possible change to D1 set up?

Bogus Megapardus wrote:
Tribe4SF wrote:
NOW I feel welcome!

And if the day comes that we deem to consider the PL, we'll let your presidents know whether to grab their ankles or not as we dictate the terms of our affiliation. Wink

Fortunately, the more brazen ankle-grabbers at Lafayette (the last two presidents in particular) have moved on to positions more suitable to their penchant.  Rolling Eyes

Our current president will want to know how W&M proposes to integrate STEM with nineteenth century Victorian realism in the locker room, and whether this guy

intends "perform" with The Marquis at halftime.  Could be a deal-breaker.


Ah...EBIRT!!! How we miss him (not). EBIRT distinguished himself only once. Prior to a game at Delaware, EBIRT was on our sideline when a 12' mechanical YouDee (mascot) came up behind him and began mechanically pecking EBIRT on the head. It turned to flee down the sideline and EBIRT caught it and took it down with a head-in-front block to the legs. Took about 5 minutes to get the thing upright again.

As for the locker room, STEM integration is a snap, but we're Georgian folks dating to the 17th century. Your Prez will just have to respect his elders.
NewXbo

Re: Possible change to D1 set up?

Tribe4SF wrote:
Bogus Megapardus wrote:
Tribe4SF wrote:
NOW I feel welcome!

And if the day comes that we deem to consider the PL, we'll let your presidents know whether to grab their ankles or not as we dictate the terms of our affiliation. Wink

Fortunately, the more brazen ankle-grabbers at Lafayette (the last two presidents in particular) have moved on to positions more suitable to their penchant.  Rolling Eyes

Our current president will want to know how W&M proposes to integrate STEM with nineteenth century Victorian realism in the locker room, and whether this guy

intends "perform" with The Marquis at halftime.  Could be a deal-breaker.


Ah...EBIRT!!! How we miss him (not). EBIRT distinguished himself only once. Prior to a game at Delaware, EBIRT was on our sideline when a 12' mechanical YouDee (mascot) came up behind him and began mechanically pecking EBIRT on the head. It turned to flee down the sideline and EBIRT caught it and took it down with a head-in-front block to the legs. Took about 5 minutes to get the thing upright again.

As for the locker room, STEM integration is a snap, but we're Georgian folks dating to the 17th century. Your Prez will just have to respect his elders.



HER
flyfisher

Re: Possible change to D1 set up?

Bogus Megapardus wrote:
flyfisher wrote:
It would be Richmomd before anyone.


Rightly or wrongly, I suspect some PL decision makers might have "issues" with certain aspects of Richmond's institutional history.


I am not arguing but what would the issue be? Is it something involving religion? I think it would be hard to find a place more radical and liberal than Lafayette on the topic of religion.
Bogus Megapardus

Re: Possible change to D1 set up?

flyfisher wrote:
I am not arguing but what would the issue be? Is it something involving religion? I think it would be hard to find a place more radical and liberal than Lafayette on the topic of religion.


Richmond was one of the last (if not the last) widely-recognized colleges to integrate.  I realize segregation once was the norm for most private southern institutions but Richmond took a notoriously hard line until the bitter end (long after the Southern Baptist Convention's 1953 integration directive). Richmond's position was widely reported (and widely condemned) at the time. Black students eventually were admitted in the early 1970s after the school's charter was changed to permit their matriculation.

I realize Richmond's past is not at all reflective of the present-day institution and that its segregationist stance likely was driven by a very few (very wealthy) benefactors.  But the social justice crowd tends to latch on to these things even with Richmond's eager and authentic efforts to change.
bethlehempard

I'd bet the house against that being an issue today.
Richmond is also where Danny Heater played freshman basketball. He's the kid who scored 135 points in a high school game, including 55 in the last 10 minutes.
He didn't like college and moved on.

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