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PardsLax

The Next Chapter

With the boys heading back to Easton to start practices in a little over three weeks, it will be interesting to see what this season will bring.  The few bright spots from last year appear to be far outweighed by the losses of key seniors.  I think the Pards were at the absolute bottom last year for D1 school in goals scored.  Some guys are really going to have to step up to fill the void left by Perini's departure.  However, last year it seemed like there were many times that the offense was simply trying to get it to Tommy and let him take care of things.  Without psychologically overdepending on him, perhaps the offense will be more fluid.  There is a huge incoming freshman class so let's hope there is some talent that can be put to use right away.  This group was recruited right after the dream season so who knows?
Bogus Megapardus

According to LaxPower, this is the incoming class:


Pard4Life

If anyone here hates sitting on the beach and being bored, here is your homework assignment... research!!  Laughing
Bogus Megapardus

Summit, Darien, Garden City and Seton Hall Prep are big time lax factories.
Pard4Life

...now if we can get some Delbarton and Mt. Lakes kids...
Andy

pretty sure I've read Darien's Baylis Treen is going elsewhere.
Bogus Megapardus

Pard4Life wrote:
...now if we can get some Delbarton and Mt. Lakes kids...


My kids have to battle those goons day in and day out.  I've spent a lot of Saturdays at those places.   First, many of them will qualify academically.  Those with the grades covet Duke and Princeton and Harvard.  We simply need a recruiting presence at those schools, which generally means getting one very popular (if no especially talented) kid to come to Easton who will talk us up.

Our strongest private academy recruiting presence in North Jersey is at Newark Academy (where the Kirbys and Simons went).  Newark Academy lacrosse is mediocre, regrettably.
bison137

Andy wrote:
pretty sure I've read Darien's Baylis Treen is going elsewhere.



Treen = Hamilton College
PardsLax

Damn!  Guess we lost a contender for Inside Lacrosse's All-Name Team.
PardsLax

And now we learn that our top recruit for this coming year decommitted and will instead play for Michigan:  

http://laxlessons.com/2011/08/15/...s-course-will-now-attend-michigan
Bogus Megapardus

And here's why:

"ANN ARBOR -- University of Michigan Athletic Director Dave Brandon announced today (May 25) the elevation of men’s and women’s lacrosse to varsity status. The men’s program will begin NCAA-Division I varsity competition in the 2011-12 academic year and the women’s program will be ready for NCAA-Division I varsity competition in the 2012-13 academic year . . . ."

http://mgobluelacrosse.com/2011/0...0%99s-lacrosse-as-varsity-sports/

We'd better get with the program, so to speak, or we're going to get steamrolled.  Lacrosse is NOT a "prep school" sport any longer.
edmc2416

I agree completely.  As has been mentioned on the board before, we should be able to be very competitive in lacrosse but we need scholarships and more backing from the school and from alums.
Lafalum

edmc2416 wrote:
I agree completely.  As has been mentioned on the board before, we should be able to be very competitive in lacrosse but we need scholarships and more backing from the school and from alums.


Not going to happen w/o scholarships which means women's scholarships as well. The school should be planning for that eventuality but we know how good we are at planning.

In the end, with all the new initiatives and areas of interest we want to explore and support at the school we should be planning to be larger. THAT MY FRIENDS would be true strategic planning. But we seem to be  more intent on turning "beds (meaning greek housing) into office space." We are building more bed space though, at off campus housing.
edmc2416

Agree with Lafalum: Lafayette College must get larger.
Pard4Life

Yes, growing the College would assist our profile.  Bucknell, an equal, is starting to trump us in academic profile.  On the other hand, equally small colleges have outstanding profiles... so how do we increase the quality without growing the College?

How can we grow the school without diluting the academic quality of the class and selectivity statistics?  If we grow the College immediately, at first, we are going to have to admit students that we would normally not admit... unless we can magically increase yield from the same pool of applicants.

What is the answer? More Marquis Scholarships?  We already subsidize the academic profile... can this program be sustainable if it grows larger?  

Do we offer more Marquis now?  But that does not increase the class size... so how do we attract more high-caliber students?
Lafalum

Pard4Life wrote:
Yes, growing the College would assist our profile.  Bucknell, an equal, is starting to trump us in academic profile.  On the other hand, equally small colleges have outstanding profiles... so how do we increase the quality without growing the College?

How can we grow the school without diluting the academic quality of the class and selectivity statistics?  If we grow the College immediately, at first, we are going to have to admit students that we would normally not admit... unless we can magically increase yield from the same pool of applicants.

What is the answer? More Marquis Scholarships?  We already subsidize the academic profile... can this program be sustainable if it grows larger?  

Do we offer more Marquis now?  But that does not increase the class size... so how do we attract more high-caliber students?


Good questions which have already been answered by studies. The optimum size now looked for by high school students is the 3-5k range. By increasing our size we are increasing our pool of applicants. The smaller 1-2.5k range is a smaller and smaller pool and much more difficult    to attract brighter students away from the Amhersts and Williams of this world.
Fiscally it makes a lot of sense to a school like ours that has a high proportion of engineers and science students who have higher fixed expenses.
Pard4Life

Lafalum wrote:
Pard4Life wrote:
Yes, growing the College would assist our profile.  Bucknell, an equal, is starting to trump us in academic profile.  On the other hand, equally small colleges have outstanding profiles... so how do we increase the quality without growing the College?

How can we grow the school without diluting the academic quality of the class and selectivity statistics?  If we grow the College immediately, at first, we are going to have to admit students that we would normally not admit... unless we can magically increase yield from the same pool of applicants.

What is the answer? More Marquis Scholarships?  We already subsidize the academic profile... can this program be sustainable if it grows larger?  

Do we offer more Marquis now?  But that does not increase the class size... so how do we attract more high-caliber students?


Good questions which have already been answered by studies. The optimum size now looked for by high school students is the 3-5k range. By increasing our size we are increasing our pool of applicants. The smaller 1-2.5k range is a smaller and smaller pool and much more difficult    to attract brighter students away from the Amhersts and Williams of this world.
Fiscally it makes a lot of sense to a school like ours that has a high proportion of engineers and science students who have higher fixed expenses.


But how do we build up to that point? What's the starting point?

You can increase the size of the school starting in 2012 by admitting more students from the current pool, but then you would dilute the admissions profile via a high admission rate and make the school less attractive to the very demographic your trying to attract... I guess think of it like diluting the stock price (prestige) by issuing more shares (admitting more students) with the same demand for the shares (same number of applicants).

Are we even certain that if we grow the school more applicants, and more qualified applicants, will apply?

Growing the school and maintaining the admissions profile will be difficult.  
Growing the school and improving the admissions profile will be a challenge.
Lafalum

Nothing in life is strictly two variables....eg more students equals dilution. We need to put ourselves in that larger pool. By putting yourself in a larger pool you can keep your selectivity. You do that by marketing the fact you are GOING to 3k before you actually do it and then do it in incremental steps over a period of years!

Using your stock analogy if you can use the leverage gained by the additonal capital (through economies of scale and greater market share) you will be paid back in a higher stock price eventually.
Pard4Life

Lafalum wrote:
Nothing in life is strictly two variables....eg more students equals dilution. We need to put ourselves in that larger pool. By putting yourself in a larger pool you can keep your selectivity. You do that by marketing the fact you are GOING to 3k before you actually do it and then do it in incremental steps over a period of years!

Using your stock analogy if you can use the leverage gained by the additonal capital (through economies of scale and greater market share) you will be paid back in a higher stock price eventually.


... unless your Citigroup!

Marketing is a major piece of the puzzle, something that is not our strong suit at the moment.
Lafalum

Have to agree on your last point, however I believe we have a great story that doesn't get told.
Bogus Megapardus

Lafalum wrote:
Have to agree on your last point, however I believe we have a great story that doesn't get told.


We have a great story.  As a former (and, indeed, current) lax player, I can't think of a better team to play with right now.  We are a long tenured Division I lacrosse school in what is considered a lax "power" conference, which has shown flashes of brilliance suggesting a school that is ready and willing to make its move to the top.

Now - lacrosse has become a very popular sport.  Michigan is the latest big power to move up to varsity lacrosse.  Michigan now will provide full scholarships "plus" - just like everything else Michigan does in athletic competition.  With the recent push by Notre Dame, UNC and Penn State to go "all in" in the ranks is lacrosse, it gets tougher and tougher by the day to compete.

Lacrosse generates very high-quality students with the academic profiles that Lafayette needs and wants.  Of all athletes, my guess is that lax players continue to fit the "Lafayette ideal" better than almost all others.  Those kids are going to go elsewhere unless we match the big schools' offers NOW - just as Hopkins does.

We have a very limited window to become an enduring, national lacrosse power.  The stage literally has been set for us.  But can the Pards match Michigan's state-of-the-art, lacrosse-dedicated indoor practice facility and the brand new, lax-only outdoor stadium it has underway?

No, we can't.  But Lafayette CAN offer lax games at gorgeous Fisher Field and practice facilities at a state-of-the-art multipurpose indoor field house facility at Meztgar, which all of us know MUST be built within the next 3-5 years, in order to remain DI competitive.  Such a facility will free up KSC basketball for expansion and provide indoor track, volleyball, field hockey and soccer the climate-controlled space that those sports need.

We have a chance to go big time in field hockey and the impetus for that already seems to have taken hold thanks to Mr. Bourger.  We are much closer than most realize to making that happen in lacrosse as well.  Kids WANT to come to a dedicated, winning program at Lafayette for lacrosse.  Why not give them that opportunity?
Lafalum

I don't think Jack Bourger has much to do with field hockey aside from a reciprocal donation between him and Bill Rappolt. But I agree FH is one year maybe less away from being a consistent  performer in the top 20 and a competitor in the NCAA tournament. The schedule already reflects that with a  win against Penn State two years ago.
I hope the school doesn't blow it because I believe it is the model to get where we can be, scholarships, good coaching, decent facilities and support from key donors.

By the way the team is going to England this spring and I hear they will be playing Oxford University !!

We are capable of screwing it up. Interesting that  two people who have done so much to promote and support their respective teams Bourger and Rappolt ( I would add Hal Kamine to that list but he is president of the Maroon Club) are frozen out of the Maroon Club Board. Have they been asked to be on the search committee for a new AD??  Anyone heard anything???
Bogus Megapardus

Lafalum wrote:
I don't think Jack Bourger has much to do with field hockey aside from a reciprocal donation between him and Bill Rappolt.


Brain fart on my part.  I meant Mr. Rappolt, of course.  But I agree with you - Lafayette does seem to be dedicated to reaching the top echelon in field hockey.  Nothing should detract from this.

I don't care if we lose by five goals to UNC this year, so long as we play them again next year, and keep doing so, while adding even more rigorous competition to the schedule in the future.
bison137

A question for you lax fans.   Someone on the HC board stated that LC gives out 8 lax scholarships a year.   Someone else then said, no, they only give 1 or 2.       I didn't even know that there were any.   What is the correct amount?
Bogus Megapardus

bison137 wrote:
A question for you lax fans.   Someone on the HC board stated that LC gives out 8 lax scholarships a year.   Someone else then said, no, they only give 1 or 2.       I didn't even know that there were any.   What is the correct amount?


It's my understanding that Lafayette has never provided any lax scholarships at all.  In the PL, only Colgate gives them and they don't come close to the 12.7 (or whatever it is) allowable number to my knowledge.  Army and Navy, of course, are free rides for all but that's "different," as you know.

I imagine that Lafayette has some number of calculable lax equivalencies, however.  I'm sure that Bucknell does as well.  I have no idea what that number is, though.  It's never been reported as far as I know.
Pard4Life

I think our window has passed to make a mark on the lacrosse world.  With the glacial pace that our administration takes to decide on anything, let alone athletics, coupled with new programs coming online at major schools, we are going to have a very difficult time recruiting from the primer lacrosse schools.
edmc2416

Bogus Megapardus wrote:
bison137 wrote:
A question for you lax fans.   Someone on the HC board stated that LC gives out 8 lax scholarships a year.   Someone else then said, no, they only give 1 or 2.       I didn't even know that there were any.   What is the correct amount?


It's my understanding that Lafayette has never provided any lax scholarships at all.  In the PL, only Colgate gives them and they don't come close to the 12.7 (or whatever it is) allowable number to my knowledge.  Army and Navy, of course, are free rides for all but that's "different," as you know.

I imagine that Lafayette has some number of calculable lax equivalencies, however.  I'm sure that Bucknell does as well.  I have no idea what that number is, though.  It's never been reported as far as I know.


Bogus: for us unenlightened folks, please explain equivalencies.  I was talking with a Lehigh friend today, and we were trying to understand the concept.  Sorry to have to ask.
Pard4Life

One scholarship = full cost of attendance. Equivalency is the cost of one scholarship, but it's given out based on demonstrated need and not athletic merit.

A full "scholarship" is $50,000. At Lafayette, student athlete A gets $35,000 because his family demonstrated need. Athlete B gets $15,000 because his family demonstrated some need. Athlete C gets $0 because his family can afford to pay the full $50k. All this is one "equivalency" because it equals a full scholarship, ie the cost of one student attending school. Sometimes a player may qualify for the full 50k. You can see why private schools are at a disadvantage, and why our market for recruits is limited.

For other sports, you can award fractions of scholarships. But for men's lacrosse, I doubt we are giving much aid because of where the kids hail from, so I doubt we have any "equivalencies." You can see why we are at an automatic disadvantage against Duke, UVA etc. You get a free ride there; you pay in Easton.
Franks Tanks

Pard4Life wrote:
One scholarship = full cost of attendance. Equivalency is the cost of one scholarship, but it's given out based on demonstrated need and not athletic merit.

A full "scholarship" is $50,000. At Lafayette, student athlete A gets $35,000 because his family demonstrated need. Athlete B gets $15,000 because his family demonstrated some need. Athlete C gets $0 because his family can afford to pay the full $50k. All this is one "equivalency" because it equals a full scholarship, ie the cost of one student attending school. Sometimes a player may qualify for the full 50k. You can see why private schools are at a disadvantage, and why our market for recruits is limited.

For other sports, you can award fractions of scholarships. But for men's lacrosse, I doubt we are giving much aid because of where the kids hail from, so I doubt we have any "equivalencies." You can see why we are at an automatic disadvantage against Duke, UVA etc. You get a free ride there; you pay in Easton.


Bogie can correct me if I am wrong, but I think Men's Lax can only offer 12.6 scholarships.  This means that even at Hopkins or Duke many players do not recieve any athletic aid.  I have heard that only the very best players recieve full rides for Lax.

This is why Cornell, Princeton, and the service academies can be so good in Lacrosse.  Their institutional aid can far exceed what is handed out in Lax scholly's.
Lafalum

It is 12.6 equivilancies and since Lacrosse is not a counter sport you could have multiple players getting partial aid.  It is correct that the aid given at HPY is richer and results in scholarships for all practical purposes. We are at a double disadvantage. No athletic scholarships and a less generous need based aid package than the big Ivies.
Bogus Megapardus

Lafalum wrote:
It is 12.6 equivilancies and since Lacrosse is not a counter sport you could have multiple players getting partial aid.  It is correct that the aid given at HPY is richer and results in scholarships for all practical purposes. We are at a double disadvantage. No athletic scholarships and a less generous need based aid package than the big Ivies.


Correct - I really don't see how the Ivies pass muster with the NCAA because the total sum of the grant money given the lax players most certainly exceeds the 12.6 allowable.

Having said that, Lafayette, with the right coach, facilities and attitude, easily could be an eastern lacrosse power.  Fisher Field, BTW, would constitute the "right facilities" IMHO.  We need an indoor practice facility, though.  Even the Division III lax schools have them.
Andy

Pard4Life wrote:
One scholarship = full cost of attendance. Equivalency is the cost of one scholarship, but it's given out based on demonstrated need and not athletic merit.

A full "scholarship" is $50,000. At Lafayette, student athlete A gets $35,000 because his family demonstrated need. Athlete B gets $15,000 because his family demonstrated some need. Athlete C gets $0 because his family can afford to pay the full $50k. All this is one "equivalency" because it equals a full scholarship, ie the cost of one student attending school. Sometimes a player may qualify for the full 50k. You can see why private schools are at a disadvantage, and why our market for recruits is limited.

For other sports, you can award fractions of scholarships. But for men's lacrosse, I doubt we are giving much aid because of where the kids hail from, so I doubt we have any "equivalencies." You can see why we are at an automatic disadvantage against Duke, UVA etc. You get a free ride there; you pay in Easton.


Not claiming anywhere near full understanding of the issue (and welcome attempts to educate) but for aid to be recognized as "athletically related"  it has to have a "grant" component.  Need based aid is merely need based aid so Ivys report no "equivalencies."   If a package contains ANY grant money at all, ALL of that recipients aid becomes "athletically related" and reportable.  Do our lax kids receive only need based aid?  I dont know.

If PL football goes to 40 scholarships,  there is nothing other than an individual institutions internal restrictions to prevent the rest of the roster from receiving full need based packages if they choose.  Correct? They would still report 40 scholarships, no additional equivalencies, and would not satisfy the 57 equivalency rule required by FBS schools for a game to count toward bowl eligibility.
Pard4Life

Bogus Megapardus wrote:
Lafalum wrote:
It is 12.6 equivilancies and since Lacrosse is not a counter sport you could have multiple players getting partial aid.  It is correct that the aid given at HPY is richer and results in scholarships for all practical purposes. We are at a double disadvantage. No athletic scholarships and a less generous need based aid package than the big Ivies.


Correct - I really don't see how the Ivies pass muster with the NCAA because the total sum of the grant money given the lax players most certainly exceeds the 12.6 allowable.

Having said that, Lafayette, with the right coach, facilities and attitude, easily could be an eastern lacrosse power.  Fisher Field, BTW, would constitute the "right facilities" IMHO.  We need an indoor practice facility, though.  Even the Division III lax schools have them.


The Ivies can pass muster because the rest of their students benefit from the same aid policies.

We do have an indoor facility... APK... I recall the team working and practicing in there.
Pard4Life

Andy wrote:
Pard4Life wrote:
One scholarship = full cost of attendance. Equivalency is the cost of one scholarship, but it's given out based on demonstrated need and not athletic merit.

A full "scholarship" is $50,000. At Lafayette, student athlete A gets $35,000 because his family demonstrated need. Athlete B gets $15,000 because his family demonstrated some need. Athlete C gets $0 because his family can afford to pay the full $50k. All this is one "equivalency" because it equals a full scholarship, ie the cost of one student attending school. Sometimes a player may qualify for the full 50k. You can see why private schools are at a disadvantage, and why our market for recruits is limited.

For other sports, you can award fractions of scholarships. But for men's lacrosse, I doubt we are giving much aid because of where the kids hail from, so I doubt we have any "equivalencies." You can see why we are at an automatic disadvantage against Duke, UVA etc. You get a free ride there; you pay in Easton.



Not claiming anywhere near full understanding of the issue (and welcome attempts to educate) but for aid to be recognized as "athletically related"  it has to have a "grant" component.  Need based aid is merely need based aid so Ivys report no "equivalencies."   If a package contains ANY grant money at all, ALL of that recipients aid becomes "athletically related" and reportable.  Do our lax kids receive only need based aid?  I dont know.

If PL football goes to 40 scholarships,  there is nothing other than an individual institutions internal restrictions to prevent the rest of the roster from receiving full need based packages if they choose.  Correct? They would still report 40 scholarships, no additional equivalencies, and would not satisfy the 57 equivalency rule required by FBS schools for a game to count toward bowl eligibility.



Just for reference... I am thinking in terms of football and not lacrosse below...

Yes the need-based athletic aid is in the form of grants, but the grant is dependent upon what you can pay.

I don't know if there is mixing and matching scholarships with equivalency aid... my intuition says that you can only do either or... you offer scholarships with the rest on regular student aid (i.e. the recruited walk-ons guaranteed a spot) or you have the grant-in-aid pool that we have now.  Otherwise, you could theoretically have a full team of the FBS maximum 85 scholarships if you grant the full FCS 63 scholarships and find the "right kids" who qualify for full aid under the old equivalency aid model.  

The Ivy's do not have equivalencies because the threshold for aid is so low that it is practically scholarship and everyone at the school, regardless of athletic status, receives.  The Ivy's theoretically have the same problem we do with recruiting (i.e. a limited pool because it is not based on athletic merit, only need) but their aid policies are much more generous for EVERYONE.  Technically, the entire team at Princeton could be getting a free ride if they were all middle-class kids who qualify for the aid, but they would not be viewed as an 'equivalency' since the policy applies to all students.

Not everyone at Lafayette receives grants if they demonstrate need, and the threshold for demonstrated need is much higher than at Princeton.  Apparently the threshold for need is not even the same within the PL due to stories of some players i.e. Eachus being offered a better package (maybe also because Colgate had recruited the "right players" i.e. those who could pay or qualify for minimal aid, so that it could dedicate the money in its aid pool to Eachus).  

The main debate at this point is not "scholarships?" but "scholarships, how?"  Will it be a hard cap, i.e. 50? Are you going to tell Colgate, very near the 63, that it can recruit only 50 scholarship players? In this respect, scholarships may actually HURT some of the PL teams.

Or will it be the 'wild west,' where each PL team can determine how many scholarships it can award, just like how many scholarship equivalencies it can fund at the present?  It will be a PL of have-and-have nots... a tiered PL of different classes as "conspiracy theorist" DFW Hoya jokes about on AGS.

The conclusion I can draw from this is that we might actually be worse-off if we don't adapt the maximum FCS allotment of 63 scholarships.
Andy

Thanks, p4l.

Need based aid becomes "athletically related"  when part of a normal need based aid package is enhanced (changed to grant) in return for athletic participation - ie the loan part becomes a gimme.  Ivys treat all students the same, so no athletically related aid.

Great point and i guess the question remains open - can a football roster include both need based players and scholarship players?
Pard4Life

Andy wrote:
Thanks, p4l.

Need based aid becomes "athletically related"  when part of a normal need based aid package is enhanced (changed to grant) in return for athletic participation - ie the loan part becomes a gimme.  Ivys treat all students the same, so no athletically related aid.

Great point and i guess the question remains open - can a football roster include both need based players and scholarship players?


It's likely a technical question whose answer can be found somewhere in the guidelines... or just ask LFN...
PardsLax

Anyone planning on going to the Alumni scrimmage Friday?  The freshmen attack are reportedly turning some heads.  Would be nice to get some eye witness reports.
bison137

Andy wrote:
Thanks, p4l.

Need based aid becomes "athletically related"  when part of a normal need based aid package is enhanced (changed to grant) in return for athletic participation - ie the loan part becomes a gimme.  Ivys treat all students the same, so no athletically related aid.

Great point and i guess the question remains open - can a football roster include both need based players and scholarship players?



Yes - as long as the two combined don't exceed 63 equivalencies.

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