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       Lafayette Sports Fan Forum Forum Index -> Football
bethlehempard

Welcome fans, to the Lafayette zone ...

Welcome fans, you are entering a strange place where:

--losing is accepted, expected and rewarded.
--coaches with lifetime losing records become, coaches for life.
--teams get worse with scholarships.
--factual discussion of the program's doormat status is deemed to be negative.
--programs serve coaches.  
--the occasional good season is not a building block for the future, but is instead an excuse to lose for several years.
--where six straight losing football seasons, capped by a 1-10 disaster, results in ... Nothing. Really! Nothing happened. Damn the consecutive 45-0 shutouts, full speed ahead! Move on folks, there's nothing to see here! On to Army!
--if we have the best Xs and Os coach since Dr. Naismith nailed up the peach basket, what does that say about our players? We will ignore the recent late and OT losses.

Spare me the usual Frank and Fran outrage. I've heard it all before. Yes they are great guys and Titans in Lafayette sports history but enough! The proof is in the pudding so to speak. Yes they deserve respect and gratitude.
Let me ask one thing of the usual suspects, who say such talk only befits quitters and nay-sayers ... Wouldn't it be more fun to follow a program that wins maybe half the time?

Since the 2000-2001 season:

Bucknell, 2 NCAA wins, 1 NIT win.
Lehigh, 4 FCS wins, 1 NCAA win (you might recall the game).
Colgate, 6 FCS wins.
Holy Cross, 1 NIT win.
Fordham, 3 FCS wins.
Lafayette ... Can't do it.
SixtyEighter

Bethlehempard- I just posted a similar rumination on the men's basketball board before I read yours. I have noticed a decline in postings . Losing in the vast quantities the Leopards accumulate has apparently worn down the Leopard fan base.This school's alumni have apparently become as indifferent to losing as the Administration and BOT.In any other school the AD and/or the president would be booed if they showed up at the debacles referred to as games at Lafayette.The student body has showed their opinion of the situation by not showing up.
Lafalum

This is becoming a leadership test for Byerly. Here is the obvious management solution.  Tomorrow, change the management structure and remove the Dean of Student Affairs D'Orio from the reporting structure regarding  collegiate athletics, make the AD report to the president, fire the current  AD, hire a new young ambitious AD, raise the operating budget 1 million dollars, make winning part of the mission. Evaluate what sports we want to be competitive, and drop the "participatory" sports to club status. That will leave 16 sports we can get behind a lead our brand to a winning image.
BillS

Lafalum wrote:
This is becoming a leadership test for Byerly. Here is the obvious management solution.  Tomorrow, change the management structure and remove the Dean of Student Affairs D'Orio from the reporting structure regarding  collegiate athletics, make the AD report to the president, fire the current  AD, hire a new young ambitious AD, raise the operating budget 1 million dollars, make winning part of the mission. Evaluate what sports we want to be competitive, and drop the "participatory" sports to club status. That will leave 16 sports we can get behind a lead our brand to a winning image.
Eliminate golf, cross country and fencing anything else?
Andy

Lafalum wrote:
This is becoming a leadership test for Byerly. Here is the obvious management solution.  Tomorrow, change the management structure and remove the Dean of Student Affairs D'Orio from the reporting structure regarding  collegiate athletics, make the AD report to the president, fire the current  AD, hire a new young ambitious AD, raise the operating budget 1 million dollars, make winning part of the mission. Evaluate what sports we want to be competitive, and drop the "participatory" sports to club status. That will leave 16 sports we can get behind a lead our brand to a winning image.


Do that and set up an account to fund it. I'll send what I can tomorrow.
Franks Tanks

BillS wrote:
Lafalum wrote:
This is becoming a leadership test for Byerly. Here is the obvious management solution.  Tomorrow, change the management structure and remove the Dean of Student Affairs D'Orio from the reporting structure regarding  collegiate athletics, make the AD report to the president, fire the current  AD, hire a new young ambitious AD, raise the operating budget 1 million dollars, make winning part of the mission. Evaluate what sports we want to be competitive, and drop the "participatory" sports to club status. That will leave 16 sports we can get behind a lead our brand to a winning image.
Eliminate golf, cross country and fencing anything else?


Swimming/diving would be my vote, but since we are renovating the pool I suppose that wouldn't happen. When we discuss eliminating sports, the talk always turns to the fact that the sports we would eliminate are funded poorly anyway, so how much money would we save.  

I believe it still starts with the AD.  I know he is a good guy.  I know he struggles with resources.  However, factors directly under his control such as coaching hires, and keeping coaches too long, have been mediocre at best.
bison137

Franks Tanks wrote:
BillS wrote:
Lafalum wrote:
This is becoming a leadership test for Byerly. Here is the obvious management solution.  Tomorrow, change the management structure and remove the Dean of Student Affairs D'Orio from the reporting structure regarding  collegiate athletics, make the AD report to the president, fire the current  AD, hire a new young ambitious AD, raise the operating budget 1 million dollars, make winning part of the mission. Evaluate what sports we want to be competitive, and drop the "participatory" sports to club status. That will leave 16 sports we can get behind a lead our brand to a winning image.
Eliminate golf, cross country and fencing anything else?


Swimming/diving would be my vote, but since we are renovating the pool I suppose that wouldn't happen. When we discuss eliminating sports, the talk always turns to the fact that the sports we would eliminate are funded poorly anyway, so how much money would we save.  

st.



At best LC would save almost nothing.  The NCAA sends a significant check for every sport a college fields above the minimum.  Thus for low cost sports, the direct savings wouldn't be great.  Then factor in the number of swimming, golf, cross country alums who get mad and stop contributing to LC.  At that point are there any savings at all?
RichH

Since NCAA defrays a good part of the cost for.all sports above the minimum little reason to drop them. Moreover, dropping minor sports could make LC"s Title IX compliance.an issue.
Lafalum

When you eliminate sports you are sending a message that the remaining sports will be fully supported and winning is an objective. The rest can be club and recreational activity.
I do know some schools as an alternative designate some sports as a sport of emphasis. In other words a sport that is expected to win and will be fully supported as such.

So some that might be considered unemphacized sports: golf,fencing, softball, volleyball, cross-country, winter track, spring track and field and swimming and diving. All those sports get part time coaches, no scholarships and limited travel budgets. Everyone else is fully staffed and has scholarships and is expected to win.
Zeus

Can't speak for other sports, but look at the way the football field is used in the off season. That speaks to the way the administration should be viewed.
Franks Tanks

Zeus wrote:
Can't speak for other sports, but look at the way the football field is used in the off season. That speaks to the way the administration should be viewed.


Not sure I follow.  Are you speaking about allowing Lax to use Fisher?  Quite a few schools, and even big boys like MD, have Lax games on their football field.

Also our turf facilities are rather limited so other teams wishing to practice on turf for one reason or another must use Fisher.  I don't have a huge problem with this, but I am sure there issues that are not common knowledge.
bison137

Lafalum wrote:


So some that might be considered unemphacized sports: golf,fencing, softball, volleyball, cross-country, winter track, spring track and field and swimming and diving. All those sports get part time coaches, no scholarships and limited travel budgets. Everyone else is fully staffed and has scholarships and is expected to win.



Couldn't be done that way for Title IX reasons.   Would need to fully fund softball and volleyball to get close, and would need some funding for women's track and field.
BPard

Lafalum wrote:
This is becoming a leadership test for Byerly. Here is the obvious management solution.  Tomorrow, change the management structure and remove the Dean of Student Affairs D'Orio from the reporting structure regarding  collegiate athletics, make the AD report to the president, fire the current  AD, hire a new young ambitious AD, raise the operating budget 1 million dollars, make winning part of the mission. Evaluate what sports we want to be competitive, and drop the "participatory" sports to club status. That will leave 16 sports we can get behind a lead our brand to a winning image.
I mostly agree. Where I disagree is cutting sports, arbitrary dollar figures ($1M), and firing as being out of character for Lafayette/higher ed. Here's what's reasonable:

1. Re-organize similar to the rest of the Patriot League members by having the AD report directly to the President (as discussed in this thread: http://lafayettesports.myfreeforum.org/about3375.html&highlight=)

2. Restart the AD succession plan that false-started several years ago. Offer to move current AD to Maroon Club in fundraising role. Direct Development to hold him accountable for his production.

3. Set athletic budget according to process discussed here: http://lafayettesports.myfreeforum.org/ftopic3404-0-asc-60.php that reflects a living wage in the city of Easton for all athletic employees and to spend on athletics the league average (instead of 2nd lowest) on per-student athlete basis. Include this increased budget info in prospectus during national search for a new AD.

4. Set a standard for athletics, hire new AD to that standard, and hold coaches accountable. Note that I am OK with the currently published standard of "Every student-athlete has the opportunity to compete for a championship while at Lafayette" as being the "new standard" provided Byerly holds the new AD accountable and on down the line.

5. Empower new AD to review and negotiate all HC contracts according to #4 with a tight leash (e.g., contract lengths).

6. If the above does not produce results in less than four years, blame that stupid forum on the Internet where alumni kvetch about athletics. Note that if she is smart and chooses 2015-2016 as the baseline year for metrics to measure against, the above plan is practically guaranteed to succeed.
Lafalum

bison137 wrote:
Lafalum wrote:


So some that might be considered unemphacized sports: golf,fencing, softball, volleyball, cross-country, winter track, spring track and field and swimming and diving. All those sports get part time coaches, no scholarships and limited travel budgets. Everyone else is fully staffed and has scholarships and is expected to win.



Couldn't be done that way for Title IX reasons.   Would need to fully fund softball and volleyball to get close, and would need some funding for women's track and field.

Softball and Volleyball are not funded now or t and f, fencing, golf or swimming. But what happens is you raise the expectations and obligations of the other sports who are being supported and you continue to collect money from the NCAA..
bison137

Lafalum wrote:
bison137 wrote:
Lafalum wrote:


So some that might be considered unemphacized sports: golf,fencing, softball, volleyball, cross-country, winter track, spring track and field and swimming and diving. All those sports get part time coaches, no scholarships and limited travel budgets. Everyone else is fully staffed and has scholarships and is expected to win.



Couldn't be done that way for Title IX reasons.   Would need to fully fund softball and volleyball to get close, and would need some funding for women's track and field.



Softball and Volleyball are not funded now.



In 2014, LC spent $800,000 on softball and $500,000 on volleyball.   That doesn't seem to fit the model of part-time coaches, no scholarships, and limited travel budgets.   If they cut their expenses dramatically to fit that model, it seems like there would be Title IX implications.

 I imagine the expenses for women's sports will be higher over the next year or two, as football expenditures rise.   Hard to balance football by only using field hockey and a little bit of soccer and lax.

Softball expenditures, btw, went up by about 60% in one year.   Title IX?


Edit:  Forgot to mention that LC spends a lot more on women's track than on men's track.   If womens' track was cut to fit the "unemphasized" model, that too would have Title IX implications.
Lafalum

[quote="bison137:53062"]
Lafalum wrote:
bison137 wrote:
Lafalum wrote:


So some that might be considered unemphacized sports: golf,fencing, softball, volleyball, cross-country, winter track, spring track and field and swimming and diving. All those sports get part time coaches, no scholarships and limited travel budgets. Everyone else is fully staffed and has scholarships and is expected to win.



Couldn't be done that way for Title IX reasons.   Would need to fully fund softball and volleyball to get close, and would need some funding for women's track and field.[/quote


Softball and Volleyball are not funded now.



In 2014, LC spent $800,000 on softball and $500,000 on volleyball.   That doesn't seem to fit the model of part-time coaches, no scholarships, and limited travel budgets.   If they cut their expenses dramatically to fit that model, it seems like there would be Title IX implications.

 I imagine the expenses for women's sports will be higher over the next year or two, as football expenditures rise.   Hard to balance football by only using field hockey and a little bit of soccer and lax.

Softball expenditures, btw, went up by about 60% in one year.   Title IX?


None of the sports you mentioned has significant scholarship money if any at all. If we are truly spending 1.3 million on those two sports it is far too much and I can think of other sports that could more productively use the money.
Given that they don't have many scholarships why spend 1.3 million??? I doubt that they are raising it….in fact I know they are not raising it!! ( Total Maroon Club Gifts were 1.8 million with football raising the most by far followed by baseball lacrosse field hockey and soccer.)  Softball is a disaster having multiple coaches in the last few years with terrible results. In fact football was charged to raise money for one or two scholarships to bring them to the level that will allow them to play a money game with a BCS school despite that the money would pay for the scholarships.!!

Where are you getting the numbers??? jAssuming your numbers are correct we spend 40k per person in softball and about 31 per on Volleyball.
bison137

[quote="Lafalum:53063"]
bison137 wrote:
Lafalum wrote:
bison137 wrote:
Lafalum wrote:


So some that might be considered unemphacized sports: golf,fencing, softball, volleyball, cross-country, winter track, spring track and field and swimming and diving. All those sports get part time coaches, no scholarships and limited travel budgets. Everyone else is fully staffed and has scholarships and is expected to win.



Couldn't be done that way for Title IX reasons.   Would need to fully fund softball and volleyball to get close, and would need some funding for women's track and field.[/quote


Softball and Volleyball are not funded now.



In 2014, LC spent $800,000 on softball and $500,000 on volleyball.   That doesn't seem to fit the model of part-time coaches, no scholarships, and limited travel budgets.   If they cut their expenses dramatically to fit that model, it seems like there would be Title IX implications.

 I imagine the expenses for women's sports will be higher over the next year or two, as football expenditures rise.   Hard to balance football by only using field hockey and a little bit of soccer and lax.

Softball expenditures, btw, went up by about 60% in one year.   Title IX?


None of the sports you mentioned has significant scholarship money if any at all. If we are truly spending 1.3 million on those two sports it is far too much and I can think of other sports that could more productively use the money.
Given that they don't have many scholarships why spend 1.3 million??? I doubt that they are raising it….in fact I know they are not raising it!! ( Total Maroon Club Gifts were 1.8 million with football raising the most by far followed by baseball lacrosse field hockey and soccer.)  Softball is a disaster having multiple coaches in the last few years with terrible results. In fact football was charged to raise money for one or two scholarships to bring them to the level that will allow them to play a money game with a BCS school despite that the money would pay for the scholarships.!!

Where are you getting the numbers??? jAssuming your numbers are correct we spend 40k per person in softball and about 31 per on Volleyball.



The numbers are self-reported by Lafayette and available on the government's Equity in Athletics website.    It is definitely money that is being spent.   Cutting it would have Title IX ramifications.
Lafalum

[quote="bison137:53065"]
Lafalum wrote:
bison137 wrote:
Lafalum wrote:
bison137 wrote:
Lafalum wrote:


So some that might be considered unemphacized sports: golf,fencing, softball, volleyball, cross-country, winter track, spring track and field and swimming and diving. All those sports get part time coaches, no scholarships and limited travel budgets. Everyone else is fully staffed and has scholarships and is expected to win.



Couldn't be done that way for Title IX reasons.   Would need to fully fund softball and volleyball to get close, and would need some funding for women's track and field.[/quote




Softball and Volleyball are not funded now.



In 2014, LC spent $800,000 on softball and $500,000 on volleyball.   That doesn't seem to fit the model of part-time coaches, no scholarships, and limited travel budgets.   If they cut their expenses dramatically to fit that model, it seems like there would be Title IX implications.

 I imagine the expenses for women's sports will be higher over the next year or two, as football expenditures rise.   Hard to balance football by only using field hockey and a little bit of soccer and lax.

Softball expenditures, btw, went up by about 60% in one year.   Title IX?


None of the sports you mentioned has significant scholarship money if any at all. If we are truly spending 1.3 million on those two sports it is far too much and I can think of other sports that could more productively use the money.
Given that they don't have many scholarships why spend 1.3 million??? I doubt that they are raising it….in fact I know they are not raising it!! ( Total Maroon Club Gifts were 1.8 million with football raising the most by far followed by baseball lacrosse field hockey and soccer.)  Softball is a disaster having multiple coaches in the last few years with terrible results. In fact football was charged to raise money for one or two scholarships to bring them to the level that will allow them to play a money game with a BCS school despite that the money would pay for the scholarships.!!

Where are you getting the numbers??? jAssuming your numbers are correct we spend 40k per person in softball and about 31 per on Volleyball.



The numbers are self-reported by Lafayette and available on the government's Equity in Athletics website.    It is definitely money that is being spent.   Cutting it would have Title IX ramifications.


I am looking at the OPE data, I don't see the same numbers but just operating expenses for specific sports. Am I looking in the wrong place? Can you post a link?
Andy

Laf go to group search, PL, year, individual sport. We are second lowest in VB expenses, but still seems extremely inflated.

Pre-set for PL:

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/Selec...92f3230313620383a35333a353220504d
Lafalum

Andy wrote:
Laf go to group search, PL, year, individual sport. We are second lowest in VB expenses, but still seems extremely inflated.

Pre-set for PL:

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/Selec...92f3230313620383a35333a353220504d


Thanks Andy the actual number for softball is 466,000. I thought it was too high. 497,000 for volleyball. Regardless my point is by designating these sports where the expectation are lower and if you fully fund the others the criteria and goals for the coach are different.
bethlehempard

The five stages of a Lafayette fan:

-Denial: I can't believe we can't beat Lehigh and Colgate and various obscure Saint Whatever schools in basketball!

-Anger: Dammit, that's the third straight loss to Lehigh!!! Our FB team is terrible!

-Bargaining: I'll contribute to the Maroon Club ... I will think happy thoughts ... Give us scholarships and we will compete with anybody ... This can't last forever!

-Depression: Good God, I can't watch this anymore ...

-Acceptance: Oh well, the boys tried hard!
SixtyEighter

Although it was a long time ago when I was on the Maroon Club Executive Committee Wrestling was eliminated by President Ellis to save $40000.00.It seemed like a paltry sum even back then. The numbers being cited for VB and SB seem astronomical even by today's standards.
Andy

SixtyEighter wrote:
Although it was a long time ago when I was on the Maroon Club Executive Committee Wrestling was eliminated by President Ellis to save $40000.00.It seemed like a paltry sum even back then. The numbers being cited for VB and SB seem astronomical even by today's standards.


Yeah, I've given the VB coach a pass thinking she hadn't been given the resources, but at the number cited, she seems to have quite a bit of grant money. SB of course the lowest figure in the league, about half of LU.  And, the BU figure at well over $1mill (no football to fund) brings back the anger over their admittance to the PL.
bethlehempard

The league went to all sports in 1990-91.
Lafayette had six league wins that year: FB 1, WBB 4, MBB 1.
That's the worst year ever by that standard.
This year is tied, with FB 0, WBB 4, MBB 2.
Lafayette needs a basketball win or it will tie its worst league showing ever.
Maybe against Lehigh today.
Unfortunately there is only hope for next year. Nothing solid. Just a feeling that this can't continue.
Can it?
seenalot

Its getting harder and harder to be optimistic.  Not sure why the outcome  changes when nothing internally changes.....
The Maroon

bethlehempard wrote:
The league went to all sports in 1990-91.
Lafayette had six league wins that year: FB 1, WBB 4, MBB 1.
That's the worst year ever by that standard.
This year is tied, with FB 0, WBB 4, MBB 2.
Lafayette needs a basketball win or it will tie its worst league showing ever.
Maybe against Lehigh today.
Unfortunately there is only hope for next year. Nothing solid. Just a feeling that this can't continue.
Can it?


Interesting - to say the least.

To make matters worse, there were only 12 league basketball games that year (Navy didn't come on board until the next year) and Georgetown wasn't a member in football at that time.

So in 90-91 they had 29 league games, compared to the 42 they have this year. Plus in some cases the field was uneven as Holy Cross and Fordham had scholarships - and fielded formidable teams.

The women's basketball team would go on to win 19 games the next year and football improved to over .500. Not sure if we'll see such a jump next season.

In 90-91 we also won titles in Field Hockey and Women's Lacrosse (although the competition was pretty bad back then).

So let's call this what it is: The worst year of Lafayette Sports EVER.
Andy

Baseball picked a distant 5th in the preseason poll.  
LeopardBall10

Andy wrote:
Baseball picked a distant 5th in the preseason poll.  


And the hits keep coming.

If I weren't so busy at work and/or didn't have a toddler at home I would dust off my photo shop and make up a couple of album covers.

Football - Album title: Who Needs A Win? Hit Single: We Won 150
MBB - Album title: In Fran We Trust Hit Single: Went Dancing (that one time)
VB - Album title: We're not Club Hit Single: Maybe We Should Be

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