Kiltedpard
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Willen All Rookie TeamCongrats to Ryan Willen for making the all rookie team! A bright spot. (Pun intended!) I guess tihs is where we begin to measure our future.
As for this year, we finished where they said we would. LAST! SIGH!
Nice effort Sat., but, Carr drains 3 - 3's in OT and we don't get a shot when we need it. Crowd finally got into it in the second half and actually booed the officiating. Justifyably so! Now we have to play AU again on Weds.
I really thought we'd be at least 6-8 this year and hoping for 7-7. Losing 3 out of 4 to the academies doesn't sit well with me. (and getting blown out by 24 at home to Army, really doesn't sit well)
I did see the 3 top teams (AU, HC, Navy) in person and I'll say again. These teams are physically bigger than we are. Not taller, bigger. Gruner, Koltun and Orchowski are the only ones who seem to have the same physical presence. We also had 3 walking wounded - Petkovich, Visockas, and Benbow. I don't know, do we have a strength and conditioning issue?
Mercer and Carr both played 40 + minutes and both looked like they could have played some more. (As an aside, unless he's got something hiding on the bench, or some juco's transfering in, Jeff's team is going to be sucking wind next year - 6 out of top 8 were seniors.)
Kinda disappointing considering what we did 10 years ago without scholarships.
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bison137
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Re: Willen All Rookie Team | Kiltedpard wrote: | | As an aside, unless he's got something hiding on the bench, or some juco's transfering in, Jeff's team is going to be sucking wind next year - 6 out of top 8 were seniors. |
Yes, AU figures to be one of the league's weaker teams next year. They lose all five starters and two of their four reserves. However, it's probably not quite as dire as the current roster makes it look.
1. They have a transfer from George Mason, 6'10" Vlad Moldoveanu, a Romanian who got a three star rating from Scout while playing H.S. ball at St. John's in Maryland. Moldoveanu started four games for GMU as a frosh but saw his PT cut back at the start of the year and left after first semester. He will be eligible to play for AU in mid-December. Looks like he's kind of thin and more of an outside shooter but he should help - assuming he doesn't opt to go play pro ball in Europe, which I think is a possibility.
2. On the recruiting side, they have signed four decent players. All of them may be good enough to challenge for a rotation spot, but I doubt any of them will be really good as freshmen. The four are:
Blake Jolivette // Houston (TX) St. Thomas // PG // 6-0/170
Mike Bersch // Mount Holly (NJ) Rancocas Valley Regional // Wing // 6-6/195
Josh Snodgrass // Gainsville (FL) P. K. Yonge // Wing // 6-5/200
Jeff Holton // Philadelphia (PA) Germantown // PF // 6-8/225
3. I believe that Jones has two more scholarships to give out, and I'm sure he's desperately trying to sign a couple of Juco's as we speak. Given their 1st place finishes the last two years, plus the ability to offer immediate starting positions and so-so academic standards, it's likely that he'll find a starter or two via that route.
- - - - -
One other possibility for Jones is that right now is the highest his profile will ever be, so if he wants to get out now is the time. With two 1st place finishes and the COY award, he may look like a good get for a CAA/A10/MAC type of school. There will definitely be a couple of jobs available in those conferences - both through firings and some coaches moving up.
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Kiltedpard
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Re: Willen All Rookie Team.......and so-so academic standards, it's likely that he'll find a starter or two via that route.
quote]
Thanks for the update. Could you elaborate on the academic std. statement?
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carney2
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My only in person appearance at Kirby this year. I lost even more respect for our shambles of a hoops program. American is number one in the league (13-1 so far) and, in my not so knowledgeable opinion, are not all that good. They are make or break off the performance of Carr and Mercer, both of whom can play, but are undersized back court players. They don't appear to have any truly talented big men and, though better than our crew, their inside game is nothing to write home about. As someone already noted, their bench is not deep. The last time I looked (still some time to go) Jones had only gone 3 deep down his bench.
My long winded point is that it doesn't take a complete team, or really all that much, to be king of the hill in the Patriot League. Jones is doing it with two undersized guards. To be just competitive - to have some kind of a chance every time out - it takes even less. The Lafayette program is none of the above - and based on the scanty information available, has no help on the way. They will apparently finish at 8-22. You can say "they're young," but what does that mean? What can we do next year? 12-16? Be still my heart. Both teams - men and women - stunk the place out this year, and last, and... Something needs to be done. BRUCE, time to get a backbone.
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Long Time Fan
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| carney2 wrote: | My only in person appearance at Kirby this year. I lost even more respect for our shambles of a hoops program. American is number one in the league (13-1 so far) and, in my not so knowledgeable opinion, are not all that good. They are make or break off the performance of Carr and Mercer, both of whom can play, but are undersized back court players. They don't appear to have any truly talented big men and, though better than our crew, their inside game is nothing to write home about. As someone already noted, their bench is not deep. The last time I looked (still some time to go) Jones had only gone 3 deep down his bench.
My long winded point is that it doesn't take a complete team, or really all that much, to be king of the hill in the Patriot League. Jones is doing it with two undersized guards. To be just competitive - to have some kind of a chance every time out - it takes even less. The Lafayette program is none of the above - and based on the scanty information available, has no help on the way. They will apparently finish at 8-22. You can say "they're young," but what does that mean? What can we do next year? 12-16? Be still my heart. Both teams - men and women - stunk the place out this year, and last, and... Something needs to be done. BRUCE, time to get a backbone. |
Carney2--You've pretty much hit it on the head in looking at American, Lafayette, and the patriot league. I've seen every home game and see it as you do. Something does need to be done--but it's not going to happen on the men's side. Unless one of the new assistants turns into a hot recruiter, we won't be competing for any league championships in the foreseeable future.
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Lafalum
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Can anyone ansewer a question that was asked in stands and brought up in this thread. Most of the teams we play are bigger ( not taller). Does Fran believe in weight training? Our kid are lean but are not as strong or obviously muscled as the other teams I have seen this year. To a certain extent its in the DNA but perhaps the off-season weight room doesn't see too many basketball players??
By the way I agree there is no chance of any major change coming in the men's program unless there is magic somewhere in this group of assistants. No way will the school buy out Fran's large long term contract!!
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carney2
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| Lafalum wrote: | Can anyone ansewer a question that was asked in stands and brought up in this thread. Most of the teams we play are bigger ( not taller). Does Fran believe in weight training? Our kid are lean but are not as strong or obviously muscled as the other teams I have seen this year. To a certain extent its in the DNA but perhaps the off-season weight room doesn't see too many basketball players??
By the way I agree there is no chance of any major change coming in the men's program unless there is magic somewhere in this group of assistants. No way will the school buy out Fran's large long term contract!! |
I guess I really didn't notice the strength issue about the entire team, but I did notice early in the American game that Willen went outside the arc to shoot a 3 and guess what - he's a chest shooter from that range. To me that always meant lack of strength and is something I only expect to see in a girls' game at this level.
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TheTruth
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caney2, i agree with your assessment about American to a point. I watched the game on MASN so I had the benefit of replays and multiple angles. Yes, the success of American is dictated by Mercer and Carr. These two guards are head and shoulders above any other guard combination in the league. Mercer is incredibly steady running the offense and could easily be a 20 point scorer in this league. They have other players like Brian Gilmore (2nd team all-league). And one of their starters, i believe it was Frank Borden, was in foul trouble early and didn't play most of the first half. They also play good defense. the quickness of their guards and forwards can disrupt a team's offense. Also their Sagarin rating of 107 is hard to deny.
I'm still amazed that the game went into overtime. We had to work for every basket. I thought we could have done more inside. this game shows that there is very little difference from the top to the bottom of the league. If you can win your home games and steal 1 or 2 games on the road, you can find yourself in the top 3.
The encouraging part is we only lose one player who I believe is very talented but tried to carry too much of the burden this year. We do have some talented players returning. Who knows what a year of maturity will do? They need to work in the weight room this off-season.
I do agree that something needs to be done to jump start both basketball programs. I always thought basketball was our premiere sport.
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carney2
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| TheTruth wrote: | caney2, i agree with your assessment about American to a point. I watched the game on MASN so I had the benefit of replays and multiple angles. Yes, the success of American is dictated by Mercer and Carr. These two guards are head and shoulders above any other guard combination in the league. Mercer is incredibly steady running the offense and could easily be a 20 point scorer in this league. They have other players like Brian Gilmore (2nd team all-league). And one of their starters, i believe it was Frank Borden, was in foul trouble early and didn't play most of the first half. They also play good defense. the quickness of their guards and forwards can disrupt a team's offense. Also their Sagarin rating of 107 is hard to deny.
I'm still amazed that the game went into overtime. We had to work for every basket. I thought we could have done more inside. this game shows that there is very little difference from the top to the bottom of the league. If you can win your home games and steal 1 or 2 games on the road, you can find yourself in the top 3.
The encouraging part is we only lose one player who I believe is very talented but tried to carry too much of the burden this year. We do have some talented players returning. Who knows what a year of maturity will do? They need to work in the weight room this off-season.
I do agree that something needs to be done to jump start both basketball programs. I always thought basketball was our premiere sport. |
I think we disagree only in degree. Going out the door on Saturday I was thinking that the difference at the end was that their shooters (Mercer and Carr) were consistent and dependable, while ours (Brown) was still in his senior funk. If Andrew could have matched those guys down the stretch it would have been a different story. On the other hand, both Mercer and Carr are quick as well as great shooters. No one on our side has that kind of quickness.
We used to be a hoops and football school. Forget the hoops.
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Kiltedpard
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Here are the statistics. This was our worse season (8-22, assumes a loss tomorrow night @ AU) under Fran since his first (7-20). In his 14 year tenure, he's had 5 winning seasons and 6 non losing seasons (15-15 last yr). 2 PL titles and 2 trips to the big dance, which believe it or not was now 10 years ago. He's the winningest coach in school history. He'a also has the most losses. His winning percentage is 47.9% and is contracted through 2014.
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carney2
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Is Fran just sitting back and coasting to retirement city? Has he lost the spark?
or
Did he catch lightning in a bottle with those first couple classes (Ciosici, Ehlers, et al.), and just isn't that good?
I've been a big Fran supporter thru his tenure on the Hill, but of late I catch myself thinking that maybe, just maybe, we would have all been better off if he'd gone to Philadelphia to try to breath life into the myth that Tom Gola never got old and LaSalle really is a big time hoops school.
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Kiltedpard
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Carney, I agree with what you say here. He came in and ressurrected the program, raising everyone's expectations. But, as is true in all sports (and life for that matter) it's "what have you done for me lately?"
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Lafalum
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I tire of endless excuses, " I need scholarships" that was legitimate and a lot of people put themselves out without a whole lot of help from Fran in public. Now its a new arena, or its too hard to recruit kids with good grads ( that does frost me), . We need some energy but thanks to the long term contract there is no incentive except pride. I am hoping that kicks in soon. Coaching at the Div 1 level takes organization and hard work, I hope we start to see evidence of that soon!!
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The Maroon
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1) We aren't going to get anywhere until the assistant situation is stabilized. Pat Brogan was Fran's number 1 when things were going well. He was not only a great recruiter but he was a capable coach (IE, things were no less intense if he ran practice). That situation we had a couple of years ago where we essentially had 3 grad-assistants for assistant coaches was asinine. Fran can be a hard guy to play for--and there's NOTHING wrong with that---but you need a strong assistant to keep things from falling apart when things crack.
2) That La Salle endaround still steams me. I can't believe Bruce took the bait--hook, line and sinker. "Hey!!! I just went on a job interview! Yeah....I'm big-time...La SALLE BABY...yes...the same LaSalle we beat by 30 last season but it's "BIG FIVE"...How about taking care of me until retirement huh?"
3) Does anyone know of a single case where we've lost a kid because of Kirby? By that token Bucknell should get every single prize recruit and the rest of us should all give up....By my experience, true basketball players just want to make sure the rim is 10 feet off the ground.
4) We did have some good luck early on (Ciosici came because Penn no longer had a place for him, Ehlers was way better than anyone knew because of an undiagnosed medical condition, Burke got turned down by both Cornell and Princeton...) but let's not totally overlook some superb coaching that Fran has done over the years. Even this season...is there any team in the league you would want to swap personnel with?
5) I'll say it even though nobody wants to: We can only get so good if we aren't brining in black players. Tavani was able to diversify the football team in a big way, Fran needs to as well.
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Andy
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And how has the Administration helped Fran climb out of this hole they dug for him:
1) granted him less scholarships than others in the league
2) wasted a year by allowing scholarships beginning in April of that year
3) being tight fisted w/ aid money (recall the 7 footer from Australia whom Asst Coach Oconnor had lined up for us and who would go on to play in the NCAA final for Georgia Tech)
4) admissions rejecting players that Fran wanted who go on to beat us as members of league foes (Torey Thomas, Carrington, and the current BU freshman, according to Xbo).
5) revolving door of assts I assume due to low wages
During the ESPNU telecast the other day, John Feinstein relayed a story: Fran told him of a kid who Fran was recruiting but having trouble getting through admissions. The kid said to Fran, "Coach, I'm a little confused, I've already been admitted to Harvard." It could be the 6'5" guard who Amaker just signed.
We dont need huge compromise, just what our PL brethren are doing for their Div. 1 programs. The elusive level playing field. Please.
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Kiltedpard
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During the ESPNU telecast the other day, John Feinstein relayed a story: Fran told him of a kid who Fran was recruiting but having trouble getting through admissions. The kid said to Fran, "Coach, I'm a little confused, I've already been admitted to Harvard." It could be the 6'5" guard who Amaker just signed.
We dont need huge compromise, just what our PL brethren are doing for their Div. 1 programs. The elusive level playing field. Please.[/quote]
This is the kind of stuff I guess I just don't understand. Why can't Fran or Tammy or Frank go to admissions and say, I need to make this happen for this kid? Are we talking GPA or SAT's? Is it that stringent? I'll bet we admit legacies if the requirements aren't there!
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Lafalum
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| Kiltedpard wrote: |
This is the kind of stuff I guess I just don't understand. Why can't Fran or Tammy or Frank go to admissions and say, I need to make this happen for this kid? Are we talking GPA or SAT's? Is it that stringent? I'll bet we admit legacies if the requirements aren't there! |
This is why the dept needs an advocate. Its the duty of the AD to be that advocate. If its a systemic problem the chain of command should be working to correct it. Fran to Bruce to Krivoski to Admissions if that doesn't work Kirivoski and Bruce to Weis. Have I identified the problem??
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carney2
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I'm taking the hints - and that's all that someone with my total lack of contacts can get - that Frank and Fran and Tammy are getting lukewarm cooperation from admissions and financial aid as a very bad sign, and more signals that the entire athletic situation is spiraling downward. Fran and Tammy seem to be taking up permanent residence at the bottom of the Patriot League pile - undoubtedly, much of it their own creation. Frank, on the other hand, gives every indication that he wants to be king of the hill. If you really look around however, there are signs - the last two recruiting classes being significant in this regard - that he's going to have a very difficult time getting out of the middle of the pack after this year.
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TheRock90
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| Lafalum wrote: | | Kiltedpard wrote: |
This is the kind of stuff I guess I just don't understand. Why can't Fran or Tammy or Frank go to admissions and say, I need to make this happen for this kid? Are we talking GPA or SAT's? Is it that stringent? I'll bet we admit legacies if the requirements aren't there! |
This is why the dept needs an advocate. Its the duty of the AD to be that advocate. If its a systemic problem the chain of command should be working to correct it. Fran to Bruce to Krivoski to Admissions if that doesn't work Kirivoski and Bruce to Weis. Have I identified the problem?? |
I think the philosophy is "Go along to get along".
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The Maroon
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| carney2 wrote: | | I'm taking the hints - and that's all that someone with my total lack of contacts can get - that Frank and Fran and Tammy are getting lukewarm cooperation from admissions and financial aid as a very bad sign, and more signals that the entire athletic situation is spiraling downward. Fran and Tammy seem to be taking up permanent residence at the bottom of the Patriot League pile - undoubtedly, much of it their own creation. Frank, on the other hand, gives every indication that he wants to be king of the hill. If you really look around however, there are signs - the last two recruiting classes being significant in this regard - that he's going to have a very difficult time getting out of the middle of the pack after this year. |
I don't know.
Imagine a scenario where we were WINNING and we read on another forum that Lafayette was admitting players that they were denying.
I'd say: Sour grapes.
Is there a team that's losing that doesn't claim admissions is killing them?
How close did we REALLY come to landing Carrington? Would you go to Lafayette if you were Carrington? Who knows, maybe we had all of these guys jazzed to go to Lafayette and they were out getting a Leopard tattooed on arm when the call came that Lafayette denied them and they'd have to settle for (pick a school). Maybe...but I doubt it.
The good news is---assuming there are no noteworthy defections---we have almost certainly bottomed out. One of the many causal factors of this season was of the 10 or so recruits for the classses of '09 and 10 we ended up with 3.
I would take Fran's game prep and X and O skills up against any coach in the country, and yet so much is wrong.
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TheTruth
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Maroon: I think you make you great points. Ever since pat brogan and John o'connor left, our assistant coaches have been ho hum. I have heard good things about the current assistants. We'll see how they do with recruiting this year. Your point #5 has always baffled me. For some reason we cannot recruit black players to our team. I'm not sure how Bucknell and Colgate can do it but we can't. Frank does a great job of it and these student-athletes excel at Lafayette.
Barry McCarty was a huge supporter of our athletic program. I know he would work with the coaches on their recruits. I don't believe the current Dean of Enrollment Services shares Barry's passion for sports and may be the issue. something is wrong if a player is accepted at Harvard and not at Lafayette.
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Andy
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| The Maroon wrote: | | How close did we REALLY come to landing Carrington? Would you go to Lafayette if you were Carrington? Who knows, maybe we had all of these guys jazzed to go to Lafayette and they were out getting a Leopard tattooed on arm when the call came that Lafayette denied them and they'd have to settle for (pick a school). Maybe...but I doubt it. |
I guess the point is we'll never know how close Thomas, Carrington or Cohen were to attending because admissions didnt give them the chance to decide.
When your premier program hasnt won a quarterfinal game in seven years something's broke and needs fixin. When kids we're rejecting are getting in to Harvard, Lehigh and Bucknell (the word is Fran really wanted Cohen) someone needs to explain things to the Dean. We are now looking up at Army basketball and Colgate for petes sake. I'm sure the powers that be are up nights worrying about it and are working feverishly to right the ship, doing all they can.
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Lafalum
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We have "bottomed out " because there is no where else to go!! We are the bottom!!!
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seenalot
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We have been at the bottom for a while - sad part is we seem to be staying there and the reasons/excuses for it are getting old.
I think the world of Fran, but like Russo, something just happens at LC when long term deals get made. Maybe its a sigh of relief after years of working for years as an underpaid assistant - but the edge seems to get lost and the approach stagnates.
The kids deserve more and frankly so do the fans, alums and parents since to a degree we are all playing for the scholarships. If admissions can't figure that out, and work with the coaching staff to get decent kids who just also happen to be bball players - thats pretty sad.
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Kiltedpard
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.....the future will be better, I promise.
That is how Fran signed off of his post game radio interview with Dick Hammer last night. I'm sure he's as competitive as the next guy, and maybe more. I can't believe for one minute that he's OK with an 8-22 record, long term deal or not. He knows what his legacy is going to be and the * that will go into part of it due to lack of scholarships is no longer in play. I'm encouraged by his statement.
On another vein, face it, money talks. There are no Bourger's or Fisher's tossing cash at the college for hoops. Not that you need a bundle of cash to run a bball program, but, if you're contributing big bucks and hoops is your baby, our admin. (or any admin.) would make it work.
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TheTruth
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Kiltedpard: good point about no big donors to the basketball program. Frank has worked very hard at cultivating the football alumni. Fran has not done the same with basketball alumni. Not sure anything can be done in this economy.
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The Maroon
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| Kiltedpard wrote: | .....the future will be better, I promise.
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And I believe him. I thought the La Salle parlor trick was a little silly (he was never going to take that job) but we all do what we gotta do to protect our welfare.
I don't think for a second that he's just collecting checks. I am sorry if I implied otherwise.
I am hoping for a quiet offseason in that I hope all of our players are back next season. I think Brown was one of 6 recruits when he came in. The junior class also lost a couple of guys---both of whom we definitely could've used. I think Kari and Gruner are the perfect guys to lead a team---they both work their asses off. I am hoping this work ethic rubs off on some of the untapped talent in the class of 2011---there are a couple in the class who were mailing it in at times and it was hell to watch.
But there's no escaping the truth you gentleman have pointed out...7 years of first-round exits and we are now looking up at Army and 'Gate....
Geez....
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seenalot
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I [u]want[/u] to believe him, but not convinced we have particular reason to, and have not heard anyone Snoopy dancing over the incoming class.
BTW anyone with insight - is Kari's return certain as I think he can graduate in May.
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Xboreturns
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He was not recognized on Senior Day which leads me to believe that he will be back.
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TheTruth
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What about Visockas (excuse my spelling)? Will he be back next year?
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RePard
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[quote="The Maroon"]1) 2)
4) but let's not totally overlook some superb coaching that Fran has done over the years. Even this season...is there any team in the league you would want to swap personnel with?quote]
I hope you are kidding? If you are making the point that many of the teams in the league don't have clearly better personnel then maybe, but you have not honestly evaluated our personnel or the rest of the league if you haven't realized that we do not have the best talent in the league.
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Long Time Fan
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[quote="RePard"] | The Maroon wrote: | 1) 2)
4) but let's not totally overlook some superb coaching that Fran has done over the years. Even this season...is there any team in the league you would want to swap personnel with?quote]
I hope you are kidding? If you are making the point that many of the teams in the league don't have clearly better personnel than maybe, but you have not honestly evaluated our personnel or the rest of the league if you haven't realized that we do not have the best talent in the league. |
I read it the same way you have. However, I think that "The Maroon" meant to type "is there any team in the league you would NOT want to swap personnel with?".
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The Maroon
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[quote="RePard"] | The Maroon wrote: | 1) 2)
4) but let's not totally overlook some superb coaching that Fran has done over the years. Even this season...is there any team in the league you would want to swap personnel with?quote]
I hope you are kidding? If you are making the point that many of the teams in the league don't have clearly better personnel than maybe, but you have not honestly evaluated our personnel or the rest of the league if you haven't realized that we do not have the best talent in the league. |
Essentially What I meant to write was "Do you really think there is there any other coach in the league that would want to swap personnel with Fran?" I saw the error soon after I posted it but I thought the tone of statement would clearly indicate what I was meaning to say: Fran did what he could with what he had.
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carney2
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| The Maroon wrote: | | what I was meaning to say: Fran did what he could with what he had. |
That may be true, but he is responsible for the bodies on hand. If he grades out at a B or better for game day, he also has to face the fact that he grades out at a D or worse for the remainder of the year - and I believe that he is paid for all 365, not just the 29 or 30 game days.
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Lafalum
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College coaching is 70 pct recruiting 20 pct practice and 10 pct game day for most of the year. When and if you get the playoffs and everyone is good then game day coaching counts more.
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RePard
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That clarification makes sense.
One of the worst things in the world happened to Fran when we got our wish with scholarships. Now he can't be exalted for any victory and forgiven for all losses. I doubt he even realized how hard it is to compete in this recruiting environment. We finished last in a league with Colgate, Army and Bucknell. The one thing I give him credit for was getting the long term contract done beforehand. He deserves this next season to show improvement and one more year to compete.
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Lafalum
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and the long term contract was good for whom.....?
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TheTruth
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"He deserves this next season to show improvement and one more year to compete."
I tend to agree that he should get one more season but there better be a fire under his seat! Fran needs to step up his coaching and recruiting. I'm not sure who to blame for the inconsistencies of this team, the players or the coaches. I know Fran like to substitute players like a merry-go-round but is this a smart thing to do with young players? I don't know. I know I would be frustrated as player.
There is talent on this team (Gruner, Willen, and Mintz to name a few). With only one player leaving the team, there are no excuses next year. I know he complains about the facilities but we aren't going to have a new arena anytime soon so stop complaining and focus on your job.
In Fran's defense, he (and the rest of the coaches) needs someone willing to fight for his program in Markle Hall. That's another topic of discussion.
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