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The Maroon

You Guys Write - I Make Charts



I've already dubbed this the worst year for Leopard sports since I became a fan. And while some of my friends here have seen a bit more than I have - I have been around for all of the Patriot League years.
I haven't done much digging to support my assertion that this is the worst year ever - but if anyone can think of a year that shook out worse than this one has so far (or comes close) feel free to challenge the assertion and I'll make another chart!
I don't think things get much rosier if I throw in tennis, track, swimming, etc - but maybe I'll put it all together at the end of the
bethlehempard

Pick your poison; for MBB, I'll take Sagarin straight up.
As of yesterday, No. 325 out of 351 (actually up a couple from several days ago after LC beat the Mighty Hoopsters of Hamilton).
Yes, sending the seniors out with a home win was nice.
Anyway, we are ahead of UTRGV, the hybrid program Hoffman transferred to (take that, Michael!) and several obscure southern programs.
The lowest Ivy: Cornell, 281.
The second-lowest Patriot: Holy Cross, 294.
Yes, we won the PL last year and for some, that excuses and even invites a decade of losing.
Not in my book. Thirteen scholarships should equal more than six wins, particularly in what is now the 26th of 34 conferences.
This is a disaster. It's one thing to lower the bar after losing good players.
Digging a hole and burying the bar is a whole other issue.
pardfan

Nothing will change until Bruce goes.  That will be the signal--to all in the Lafayette community--especially the coaches.  
  
 Until Bruce goes and a new policy is instituted, we're just the league punching bag. The Washington Generals of the Patriot League. (Separately, where has Emma Novick been the last two games in wlax?)
The Maroon

bethlehempard wrote:
Pick your poison; for MBB, I'll take Sagarin straight up.
As of yesterday, No. 325 out of 351 (actually up a couple from several days ago after LC beat the Mighty Hoopsters of Hamilton).
Yes, sending the seniors out with a home win was nice.
Anyway, we are ahead of UTRGV, the hybrid program Hoffman transferred to (take that, Michael!) and several obscure southern programs.
The lowest Ivy: Cornell, 281.
The second-lowest Patriot: Holy Cross, 294.
Yes, we won the PL last year and for some, that excuses and even invites a decade of losing.
Not in my book. Thirteen scholarships should equal more than six wins, particularly in what is now the 26th of 34 conferences.
This is a disaster. It's one thing to lower the bar after losing good players.
Digging a hole and burying the bar is a whole other issue.


The year before Fran took over we were flirting with last in the Sagarin rankings for a while - with Prairie View. I think there were only about 305 schools total at that time.

I was surprised we did as poorly as we did in men's hoops this year, but if I have to prioritize where the problems are, Fran's program isn't even on the first page. I don't think we're looking at a decade of losing - in fact I think we'll be around .500 next season.

What I've noticed with Fran is he rarely puts together back-to-back strong recruiting years. I have to say I wonder if sometimes he doesn't bargain with admissions to land the good classes and then his hands are effectively tied for the next couple years. This is a completely inane theory that I often play in my mind when I think about the program - but I'm in no way trying to suggest any of the kids he's had on his team aren't worthy of admission.

Anyway - up until the end I believed Fran's team had a chance - that isnt' always the case with some of our other programs.

Of four programs we spend the most focus on with this board - I must say football seems to be in the deepest trouble. Andy - as he always does - made some excellent points and gave me some reason for optimism but we didn't look like a team on the cusp of breaking through last year. Given that brutal schedule I'm thinking we can be a WHOLE lot better and be a mere 3-8.

I would hope if anyone can get women's basketball going it's someone with Theresa Grentz' resume.

I was optimistic about Lax until this afternoon but I'm not giving up on them just yet. I think Women's lacrosse is going to be OK - as another poster mentioned I hope the frosh is OK.

But the bottom line is  as a department we're losing close to 80% of our league games - there is very little we can point to that's going very well. I don't know where the blame lies - but right now this is a department-wide failure.
ed65

Maroon: You should send your charts to Byerly and every Board Member.
SixtyEighter

I received the solicitation to submit a question to Byerly along with everyone else connected to the college. After drafting the question when I tried to send it in I was re-routed to Byerly's bio page and the question dematerialized. I tried twice with the same result. The question was along the lines of this subject- In view of the records of the various teams and the President's goal to take the college in a new direction what plan if any was there to improve the competitiveness of the athletic programs? Maybe someone more adroit than I with a computer can present this concern to Byerly during her Internet discussion.The question contained a recounting of all the losing records being cited in this thread.
pardfan

SixtyEighter wrote:
I received the solicitation to submit a question to Byerly along with everyone else connected to the college. After drafting the question when I tried to send it in I was re-routed to Byerly's bio page and the question dematerialized. I tried twice with the same result. The question was along the lines of this subject- In view of the records of the various teams and the President's goal to take the college in a new direction what plan if any was there to improve the competitiveness of the athletic programs? Maybe someone more adroit than I with a computer can present this concern to Byerly during her Internet discussion.The question contained a recounting of all the losing records being cited in this thread.


I like your idea and question.  This could be the opportunity most have been looking for.  Crikey, let's go for it! (I'm not much with these gadgets.  Surely someone could do it.)  If the question is being rejected on the basis of its being negative or confrontational, we should be able to discern it--and that will REALLY tell us "where we're at."  "Send us your money; but, don't tell us how to do our job" would be my reading and THAT response is no longer acceptable.
(This might be an opportunity to apologize to anyone with a Columbia affiliation.  I have said we were (are) Columbia.  Wrong.  Some of their teams win.  Cross country, fencing, soccer, basketball..I stopped checking at that point.  I know they're good at baseball.)  Lafayette athletics are in uncharted waters to say the least, President Byerly.  What's the plan going forward?
The Maroon

I honestly would love to show my awesome chart to any number of people and ask "under what circumstances is this acceptable?"

Look - we're a small school, we're kind of a perpetual underdog, I like that status - I relish in it. I don't expect the league win% to be 50% - to me that's unrealistic for a lot of reasons...but 22%?

We've made a million excuses but to me there's one reason that is probably in line with some of the excuses but the parents who post don't like to admit: Our athletes aren't as good as their athletes.

So we're either going after the wrong kids - or my theory is we aren't getting any help at all from admissions. When you say that it sounds like sour grapes or classless - I'm not implying that any athlete at any of our fellow PL school doesn't deserve to be there - but the alternative is that 1) Lafayette - as a school - is so unattractive an alternative it has no chance against LU, Bucknell, etc...or 2) That ALL of our coaches are completely unable to judge talent.

Yes - we have good athletes, yes most of them got looked at elsewhere - but we're losing too many recruiting battles!
NewXbo

I think you are half way there Maroon. We don't get many breaks from admissions. The coaches are not willing to go there in fear that things may get worse. Even the AD isn't willing to take his shoe off occasionally and pound it on admissions desk.

I think the other half is that our expectations are unrealistic. We are too small to be at the top in every sport. I have proposed before that we should identify one women's and one men's sport for each season to be our premier sport.  

FOR EXAMPLE: Fall: football and field hockey, Winter: men's and women's basketball, Spring: women's lacrosse and baseball.

Please keep in mind that I said FOR EXAMPLE.

NewXbo
Patent Pending
Kpard

Yes, but, what is really important is :

"If you can play.....you can play"  Rolling Eyes  Embarassed
Franks Tanks

Good points maroon.  For me issues are below...

1- admissions- no enough support for many sports
2-funding- This would include scholarship money, but perhaps just as important would be coach pay and recruiting budgets.  We may criticize the coaching in certain sports, but important to remember that many of these folks are not receiving a D-I salary so maybe we shouldn't expect D-I coaching.  Not true for all sports, but some I think.  Recruiting budget is also poor I believe, which of course limits the pool.
3- Lack of accountability- The AD, President and the current reporting structure do not create an atmosphere of accountability.  I have no idea if progress goals are even in place in many programs.  I understand our limitations, but some accountability starting at the top is needed.
4. Culture of losing- Many sports haven't had a winning season in this millennium.  Softball, Volleyball and I think women's basketball to name a few  When a recruit sees that the program hasn't won since he/she has been alive, it is hard to convince the young person that their presence will make a difference.

I'm sure some kids choose Lehigh or Colgate or whomever because they just like the school better, but I don't think it is a major factor.

The point about selecting a few premier sports which have proper resources is excellent.  We should chose a few sports in which we can excel, and put a plan in place to do so.  If proper progress isn't made toward that plan in the given timeframe we need to move to another coach.  If we have any sort of strategic plan in athletics I would be shocked.
ed65

pardfan wrote:
SixtyEighter wrote:
I received the solicitation to submit a question to Byerly along with everyone else connected to the college. After drafting the question when I tried to send it in I was re-routed to Byerly's bio page and the question dematerialized. I tried twice with the same result. The question was along the lines of this subject- In view of the records of the various teams and the President's goal to take the college in a new direction what plan if any was there to improve the competitiveness of the athletic programs? Maybe someone more adroit than I with a computer can present this concern to Byerly during her Internet discussion.The question contained a recounting of all the losing records being cited in this thread.


I like your idea and question.  This could be the opportunity most have been looking for.  Crikey, let's go for it! (I'm not much with these gadgets.  Surely someone could do it.)  If the question is being rejected on the basis of its being negative or confrontational, we should be able to discern it--and that will REALLY tell us "where we're at."  "Send us your money; but, don't tell us how to do our job" would be my reading and THAT response is no longer acceptable.
(This might be an opportunity to apologize to anyone with a Columbia affiliation.  I have said we were (are) Columbia.  Wrong.  Some of their teams win.  Cross country, fencing, soccer, basketball..I stopped checking at that point.  I know they're good at baseball.)  Lafayette athletics are in uncharted waters to say the least, President Byerly.  What's the plan going forward?


I can assure you that Byerly has heard about the travails of the athletic program, and from more than a few people.  However, I encourage you to send her a message and a question about it.  If no question about athletics comes up in the 3/15 call-in, it will be due to the fact that she or someone else decided not to answer it.
ed65

Re: strategic plans.  Ironically, Weiss has an MBA but from all the evidence, he didn't know much about strategic planning given the various fiascos that took place during his Presidency (football equivalencies decimated, the fraternity mess, just to name a few).
Lafalum

ed65 wrote:
Re: strategic plans.  Ironically, Weiss has an MBA but from all the evidence, he didn't know much about strategic planning given the various fiascos that took place during his Presidency (football equivalencies decimated, the fraternity mess, just to name a few).


Totally agrees, grassing the quad is NOT a strategic plan.
pardfan

Re: You Guys Write - I Make Charts

The Maroon wrote:


I've already dubbed this the worst year for Leopard sports since I became a fan. And while some of my friends here have seen a bit more than I have - I have been around for all of the Patriot League years.
I haven't done much digging to support my assertion that this is the worst year ever - but if anyone can think of a year that shook out worse than this one has so far (or comes close) feel free to challenge the assertion and I'll make another chart!
I don't think things get much rosier if I throw in tennis, track, swimming, etc - but maybe I'll put it all together at the end of the


Something tells me we have been really struggling against Lehigh over the last few years (counting the appropriate sports).  Any data or chart on that (if you have the opportunity and time)?
SixtyEighter

I sent the question by 3 different routes and although acknowledged as received by the alumni office apparently it was not used. I purposely put the won - lost records in the question to reduce wiggle room but apparently that marked my question for the waste can.
Andy

Re: You Guys Write - I Make Charts

pardfan wrote:
The Maroon wrote:


I've already dubbed this the worst year for Leopard sports since I became a fan. And while some of my friends here have seen a bit more than I have - I have been around for all of the Patriot League years.
I haven't done much digging to support my assertion that this is the worst year ever - but if anyone can think of a year that shook out worse than this one has so far (or comes close) feel free to challenge the assertion and I'll make another chart!
I don't think things get much rosier if I throw in tennis, track, swimming, etc - but maybe I'll put it all together at the end of the


Something tells me we have been really struggling against Lehigh over the last few years (counting the appropriate sports).  Any data or chart on that (if you have the opportunity and time)?


Here you go. There are threads for individual academic years covering the past several in the "Whatever Else" section. I'll get after a '15-'16 total one of these days. (3 wins so far - VB (W3-0, L 0-3), FH, Golf).

'14-'15 results vs LU   (streak) [last 10]

M XC      0-1  (L16)
W XC      0-1  (L10)
VB          0-2   (L11)
W Soc     0-1  (L1)   [3-7]
M Soc.    1-0  (W4)   [7-2-1]  Way to go, Pards!
Golf        1-1  (L1)    [2-3]  
FH          1-0  (W11)             !!!!!!
MS&D      0-1  (L15)
WS&D     0-1  (L7)   [2-8]
Football   1-0  (W2)  [5-5]      Woohoo!
MBB        1-1  (W1)  [5-5]      Champs!
WBB        1-1  (W1)  [4-6]
WIT&F     0-1  (L7)
MIT&F      0-1  (L2)
MOT&F     0-1  (L1)   [3-7]
WOT&F     1-0  (W1)  [6-4]
MTen        0-1  (L7)   [1-9]
WTen       0-1  (L12)
MLax        0-1  (L6)   [1-9]
WLax        0-1  (L2)   [2-8]
Soft          0-3  (L eight)   [1-9]
Base         1-3   (L1)  [3-7]


    ------
             8-23

Horrible overall, but a very satisfying performance vs Rival by our supported sports.


2013-14 --  8-23
2012-13 --14-19
2011-12 -- 6-26
2010-11 -- 4-26
2009-10 -- 8-23
2008-09 -- 8-22-1
2007-08 --17-14
2006-07 -- 13-17
2005-06 -- 10-24

Last edited by Andy on Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:59 pm; edited 2 times in total
pardfan

SixtyEighter wrote:
I sent the question by 3 different routes and although acknowledged as received by the alumni office apparently it was not used. I purposely put the won - lost records in the question to reduce wiggle room but apparently that marked my question for the waste can.


Holy Cross is similarly small (extra 400 students) and from what I see and read (AGS)...THEY HATE TO LOSE and will do whatever it takes.  Why can't we be that way?  (I guess, what I'm saying, too, is that I'm not sure that with an increase in enrollment, we will automatically become competitive.  If I were somewhat sure of that, I would let the issue go.)

Furthermore, I feel that Byerly knows more about the various Posses than she knows about Lafayette athletics and the (our) general concern.  (Hardly mentioning athletics during the webchat is indicative.)  I have a big problem with that.
pardfan

Thanks for the LC-LU info.  Gives us further perspective.
BPard

pardfan wrote:
Furthermore, I feel that Byerly knows more about the various Posses than she knows about Lafayette athletics and the (our) general concern. (Hardly mentioning athletics during the webchat is indicative.)
Probably because students have been protesting the administration and faculty considering redirecting funds from Posse DC towards need blind admissions. Students have not protested the state of athletics, especially with regards to the topic of the webcast - the three initiatives the Trustees approved (increasing size of student body, need blind admissions, and competitive faculty compensation).

Maybe if athletic funding was on the chopping block to be redirected to need blind admissions, there'd be a student uproar. But I doubt it.

Quote:
I guess, what I'm saying, too, is that I'm not sure that with an increase in enrollment, we will automatically become competitive.

I don't think increasing the size of the College will automatically make athletics competitive; however, it should relieve some pressure (budget, campus climate/social life, etc.)
bison137

pardfan wrote:


Holy Cross is similarly small (extra 400 students) and from what I see and read (AGS)...THEY HATE TO LOSE and will do whatever it takes.  Why can't we be that way?  (I guess, what I'm saying, too, is that I'm not sure that with an increase in enrollment, we will automatically become competitive.  If I were somewhat sure of that, I would let the issue go.)




Fwiw, Lafayette has finished ahead of Holy Cross in the men's Presidents' Cup for 23 of the 25 years the league has existed.   LC also has a big advantage historically over HC in the overall competition, but HC has been better the last three years.
pardfan

Much like the markets, I guess.  We take the stairs up--and the elevator down.
Pardsfriend

athletics-funding and competitive balance

Byerlys initiatives are worthwhile in the broad spectrum of finance and strategic growth for the college.  I'm not sure these initiatives will have any connection to competitive programs and culture change within athletics.  

That comes from top-down leadership and accountability across all programs and within each sport.


I've outlined this before, and B137 is familiar with one I mentioned before, but there are specific institutional changes which should happen at LC quickly.  And in conjunction with the strategic initiatives outlined last month.  For the most part, these don't require funding and BOT policy directives.   There is one initiative that does require funding, but it is a capital project which is necessary and overdue.  I will outline below.

1. Award funding grants within the financial-aid office earlier to high school juniors at beginning of their first semester.  This is outside of athletic scholarships, but absolutely necessary in men's lacrosse, (and I'm sure other sports). We are at a competitive disadvantage right now, compared against other PL programs and their awarding of financial aid.

2.  Change how, when, and where athletes are fed within the colleges administrative structure.  Nutrition and eating is overlooked, but absolutely necessary within a d1 athletic program across all sports, but especially in football, basketball, baseball, and lacrosse.

3. Establish metrics with details specific to program progress in each sport.   Not just academic progress, which LC does a very good job administering now. Each sport must demonstrate success on the field.  Here's one example.  The (insert sport) program must make incremental progress indicated by league playoff inclusion at least once every three years.

4.  Make disciplinary policy regarding student-athlete personal conduct fair, commensurate with severity of violation, and administered by the HC in each sport for every first-time offender.   Our coaches are handcuffed right now by college policy.


The aforementioned are only four, and a limited number of  institutional changes that would immediately benefit our athletic programs.  

The final proposal which I alluded to earlier is the immediate construction of a multi-purpose facility to benefit all sports. One local example is Rausch field house at Lehigh. At LC, a facility of this type would be available during poor weather, mitigate logistical scheduling problems, and free limited space within Kirby Center.   Again, we are at a competitive disadvantage compared to other PL athletic programs.  And the financial expense is miniscule compared to the long-term benefit.   We have a location available, preliminary cost estimate, and demonstrated need right now.   These changes fall outside of Title IX , and benefit our coaches and players in all sports.
LC Fan

Tennis Team

Overlooked in our panoply of failure is our tennis team the combined record of which is 8 wins and 47 losses. Included in this record were shutout losses to such powerhouses as St Francis (PA) and Bethune Cookman. We must just throw the rackets and balls on the court and see who shows up. How embarrassing and humiliating is this!
Franks Tanks

Re: Tennis Team

LC Fan wrote:
Overlooked in our panoply of failure is our tennis team the combined record of which is 8 wins and 47 losses. Included in this record were shutout losses to such powerhouses as St Francis (PA) and Bethune Cookman. We must just throw the rackets and balls on the court and see who shows up. How embarrassing and humiliating is this!


Tennis
Cross County
Volleyball
Swimming and Diving
Softball

These sports have virtually no chance.  Not sure if some of these squads have ever had a winning season.  We are virtually non-competitive here.

Women's Basketball
Men's Lax
Women's Soccer
Track

We seem to be trying a bit here, but to my knowledge these sports are usually an utter failure as well.  We get lucky once in a while.

Football
Men's Basketball
Men's soccer
Field Hockey
Women's Lax
Baseball

Sports we've had some level of success with in the recent or distant past, and sports we seem to care about.  I think most agree virtually all of these programs are under achieving at the moment (maybe field hockey can be excluded).

Please feel free too add/subtract and to agree or disagree.  My main point was that we don't even try with some sports.  Some sports we do try, and don't do that very well either.
NewXbo

Re: Tennis Team

Franks Tanks wrote:
LC Fan wrote:
Overlooked in our panoply of failure is our tennis team the combined record of which is 8 wins and 47 losses. Included in this record were shutout losses to such powerhouses as St Francis (PA) and Bethune Cookman. We must just throw the rackets and balls on the court and see who shows up. How embarrassing and humiliating is this!


Tennis ==== No one cares, we don't even have an indoor facility to practice
Cross County = anybody who thinks running 3 or 5 miles is fun is crazy
Volleyball = believe we have a strong class coming in
Swimming and Diving = inadequate facility, money flushed down the hopper
Softball = third year, new coach, looks improved this year

These sports have virtually no chance.  Not sure if some of these squads have ever had a winning season.  We are virtually non-competitive here.

Women's Basketball = give her a chance
Men's Lax = give the sport back to the Indians
Women's Soccer = there is always hope we get lucky
Track = no adequate indoor facility, we have had some individual winners

We seem to be trying a bit here, but to my knowledge these sports are usually an utter failure as well.  We get lucky once in a while.

Football = scholarships, new era, lets give them a chance
Men's Basketball = has won in the past, likely to do it again
Men's soccer = competitive, need to learn how to win (score goals)
Field Hockey = plays tough schedule, need to learn how to win
Women's Lax = see men's lax
Baseball = coach had some health issues, program rebounding

Sports we've had some level of success with in the recent or distant past, and sports we seem to care about.  I think most agree virtually all of these programs are under achieving at the moment (maybe field hockey can be excluded).

Please feel free too add/subtract and to agree or disagree.  My main point was that we don't even try with some sports.  Some sports we do try, and don't do that very well either.
pards123

Re: Tennis Team

LC Fan wrote:
Overlooked in our panoply of failure is our tennis team the combined record of which is 8 wins and 47 losses. Included in this record were shutout losses to such powerhouses as St Francis (PA) and Bethune Cookman. We must just throw the rackets and balls on the court and see who shows up. How embarrassing and humiliating is this!


Administration was content with a joke coach for the past 10 years. He's finally gone, but they only have an interim placement. There's no reason Lafayette tennis shouldn't be competitive in the Patriot League. Bethune Cookman is actually pretty good at tennis FWIW

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