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Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:26 pm

zenatorView user's profile






Joined: 17 Dec 2015
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Laf:

In the PL, it is called a "Hardship Waiver" and found in Art. IV, Section (5)A. A member institution, like LC, can grant one to a player in any year, who experiences a "serious injury." I believe that the player also has to satisfy the normal other NCAA criteria for a medical redshirt.

You may be thinking of an "Athletic Waiver," which is prohibited in the PL, but allowed at FBS institutions.

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Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 5:32 pm

LafalumView user's profile






Joined: 06 Mar 2007
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Yes

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Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 5:51 pm

AndyView user's profile






Joined: 23 Feb 2007
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All I'm saying is I'm not going to celebrate a kid leaving to play his 4th year of eligibility elsewhere after having taken 4 years of athletic scholarship money, when the system is in place for the kid to play all 4 at the school from which he took the money. Not saying at all that it's not financially terrific for the S/A. Just not sure it passes the smell test.

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Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:51 pm

zenatorView user's profile






Joined: 17 Dec 2015
Posts: 78







Andy wrote:
All I'm saying is I'm not going to celebrate a kid leaving to play his 4th year of eligibility elsewhere after having taken 4 years of athletic scholarship money, when the system is in place for the kid to play all 4 at the school from which he took the money. Not saying at all that it's not financially terrific for the S/A. Just not sure it passes the smell test.


Understand. But, winning is also about taking advantage of the rules. Next season, for example, our D-line will be greatly helped by 2 medical redshirts.

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Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 9:15 pm

flyfisherView user's profile






Joined: 11 Dec 2012
Posts: 1306







Andy wrote:
All I'm saying is I'm not going to celebrate a kid leaving to play his 4th year of eligibility elsewhere after hattving taken 4 years of athletic scholarship money, when the system is in place for the kid to play all 4 at the school from which he took the money. Not saying at all that it's not financially terrific for the S/A. Just not sure it passes the smell test.


Understand totally.

Look, many of the alumni or people on this board have complained saying kids get scholarships and a great education so they should feel like they got a great deal. Don't be upset because some of the kids are upset they did not win. When a kid trains about half their life and works toward goals of winning, and then you don't get ere for a numb of reasons, you're going to be pissed, angry, bitter, call it what you want. If you want players that give a damn then you have to expect them to be upset with losing. Accepting losing is unacceptable. No hard feelings.

By the way, if LC and the PL had a system in place where the kid could stay in school and take some classes then some might stay. Maybe take grad classes at Lehigh or something. But right now the arrangement doesn't work well.

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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:16 am

SIDELINERView user's profile






Joined: 13 Oct 2008
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Location: PA





flyfisher wrote:
Andy wrote:
All I'm saying is I'm not going to celebrate a kid leaving to play his 4th year of eligibility elsewhere after hattving taken 4 years of athletic scholarship money, when the system is in place for the kid to play all 4 at the school from which he took the money. Not saying at all that it's not financially terrific for the S/A. Just not sure it passes the smell test.


By the way, if LC and the PL had a system in place where the kid could stay in school and take some classes then some might stay. Maybe take grad classes at Lehigh or something. But right now the arrangement doesn't work well.


Hate having to call on RichH so much, but he seems like a cooperative chap. So, maybe he can tell us how Lehigh works its medical redshirt thing. I've heard that a kid doesn't have to drop out of school for a semester, as he must do at Lafayette. Does the kid graduate with his original class and then take grad courses -- which Lehigh has many more of than does Lafayette -- while playing the final year of his eligibility?

I think each PL school has its own method of working the medical redshirt thing.

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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:22 am

flyfisherView user's profile






Joined: 11 Dec 2012
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SIDELINER wrote:
flyfisher wrote:
Andy wrote:
All I'm saying is I'm not going to celebrate a kid leaving to play his 4th year of eligibility elsewhere after hattving taken 4 years of athletic scholarship money, when the system is in place for the kid to play all 4 at the school from which he took the money. Not saying at all that it's not financially terrific for the S/A. Just not sure it passes the smell test.


By the way, if LC and the PL had a system in place where the kid could stay in school and take some classes then some might stay. Maybe take grad classes at Lehigh or something. But right now the arrangement doesn't work well.


Hate having to call on RichH so much, but he seems like a cooperative chap. So, maybe he can tell us how Lehigh works its medical redshirt thing. I've heard that a kid doesn't have to drop out of school for a semester, as he must do at Lafayette. Does the kid graduate with his original class and then take grad courses -- which Lehigh has many more of than does Lafayette -- while playing the final year of his eligibility?

I think each PL school has its own method of working the medical redshirt thing.


Good question. One small thing I do know is to play after graduation at another school you have to take a minimum of 6 hours of grad classes. You don't have to be admitted in the grad school, just take a minimum of 6 hours. I do not know if that is the same situation if you plan to stay at the same school.

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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:18 pm

PardDad71View user's profile






Joined: 09 Nov 2016
Posts: 166







Is there a rule athletes have to graduate in 4 years?

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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:50 pm

SixtyEighterView user's profile






Joined: 28 Oct 2013
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Patriot League teams can give only eight semesters of scholarship.

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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:58 pm

AndyView user's profile






Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 6155







PardDad71 wrote:
Is there a rule athletes have to graduate in 4 years?


A student-athlete shall complete his or her seasons of participation within four calendar
years from the beginning of the semester or quarter in which the student-athlete first
registered for a minimum full-time program of studies in a collegiate institution.///

There is also a "normal academic progress" provision.

Otherwise one needs a waiver, for instance to continue as a grad student at the institution you graduated from. Question I have: if a S/A has eligibility left (hardship waiver - injury or some other limited situations) after obtaining a degree from say Lehigh (where apparently one does not have to drop out a semester), who pays for the ninth semester?

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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:51 pm

zenatorView user's profile






Joined: 17 Dec 2015
Posts: 78







Andy wrote:
PardDad71 wrote:
Is there a rule athletes have to graduate in 4 years?


A student-athlete shall complete his or her seasons of participation within four calendar
years from the beginning of the semester or quarter in which the student-athlete first
registered for a minimum full-time program of studies in a collegiate institution.///

There is also a "normal academic progress" provision.

Otherwise one needs a waiver, for instance to continue as a grad student at the institution you graduated from. Question I have: if a S/A has eligibility left (hardship waiver - injury or some other limited situations) after obtaining a degree from say Lehigh (where apparently one does not have to drop out a semester), who pays for the ninth semester?


Great question. My belief is that hardship waiver allows institution to pay for 5 years, but am not sure. I do know that for a SA in PL that hardship waiver is a gift from the gods, especially  for freshman/sophomores with "serious injuries" which have a year or less  full-recovery prognosis. It essentially gives the SA a huge leg up for admission to a top grad school, since can apply anywhere.

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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:11 pm

AndyView user's profile






Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 6155







zenator wrote:
Andy wrote:
PardDad71 wrote:
Is there a rule athletes have to graduate in 4 years?


A student-athlete shall complete his or her seasons of participation within four calendar
years from the beginning of the semester or quarter in which the student-athlete first
registered for a minimum full-time program of studies in a collegiate institution.///

There is also a "normal academic progress" provision.

Otherwise one needs a waiver, for instance to continue as a grad student at the institution you graduated from. Question I have: if a S/A has eligibility left (hardship waiver - injury or some other limited situations) after obtaining a degree from say Lehigh (where apparently one does not have to drop out a semester), who pays for the ninth semester?


Great question. My belief is that hardship waiver allows institution to pay for 5 years, but am not sure. I do know that for a SA in PL that hardship waiver is a gift from the gods, especially for freshman/sophomores with "serious injuries" which have a year or less full-recovery prognosis. It essentially gives the SA a huge leg up for admission to a top grad school, since can apply anywhere.


Zen - the PL hardship waiver only pertains to extending the athlete's career in the PL because the league does not allow redshirting. The NCAA allows 5 years to play 4. A PL athlete doesn't need a PL waiver to continue his career at the grad school level (unless it's a PL grad school). Just needs a Dr's statement as to his year ending injury. Brockman didn't need a PL waiver to graduate and play his 4th year of eligibility for CSM. As to paying for the extra semester in the PL, LC and HC, at least, make the athlete drop out cause they're only going to pay for 8 semesters. This is my understanding.

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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:19 pm

LeopardBall10View user's profile






Joined: 23 Oct 2009
Posts: 291







Andy wrote:
As to paying for the extra semester in the PL, LC and HC, at least, make the athlete drop out cause they're only going to pay for 8 semesters. This is my understanding.


Partially true, but this also happens because the PL rules require that a SA have an academic reason for returning. You have to either be completing major/minor course requirements, pursuing a thesis, etc. So the coaches often encourage a player in this situation to pick up a minor and then save a few of those credits for the last semester. Leaving for a semester saves those credits for that requirement.

That, and its cheaper.
_________________
"Pride, Purpose, Passion!"

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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:32 pm

AndyView user's profile






Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 6155







LeopardBall10 wrote:
Andy wrote:
As to paying for the extra semester in the PL, LC and HC, at least, make the athlete drop out cause they're only going to pay for 8 semesters. This is my understanding.


Partially true, but this also happens because the PL rules require that a SA have an academic reason for returning. You have to either be completing major/minor course requirements, pursuing a thesis, etc. So the coaches often encourage a player in this situation to pick up a minor and then save a few of those credits for the last semester. Leaving for a semester saves those credits for that requirement.

That, and its cheaper.


10 can you answer the prior question then? In the case of say Lehigh who apparently doesn't require the athlete to drop out for a semester and then continues to their grad school for his 4th year of eligibility, who pays for that grad semester?

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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:31 pm

zenatorView user's profile






Joined: 17 Dec 2015
Posts: 78







Andy wrote:
zenator wrote:
Andy wrote:
PardDad71 wrote:
Is there a rule athletes have to graduate in 4 years?


A student-athlete shall complete his or her seasons of participation within four calendar
years from the beginning of the semester or quarter in which the student-athlete first
registered for a minimum full-time program of studies in a collegiate institution.///

There is also a "normal academic progress" provision.

Otherwise one needs a waiver, for instance to continue as a grad student at the institution you graduated from. Question I have: if a S/A has eligibility left (hardship waiver - injury or some other limited situations) after obtaining a degree from say Lehigh (where apparently one does not have to drop out a semester), who pays for the ninth semester?


Great question. My belief is that hardship waiver allows institution to pay for 5 years, but am not sure. I do know that for a SA in PL that hardship waiver is a gift from the gods, especially for freshman/sophomores with "serious injuries" which have a year or less full-recovery prognosis. It essentially gives the SA a huge leg up for admission to a top grad school, since can apply anywhere.


Zen - the PL hardship waiver only pertains to extending the athlete's career in the PL because the league does not allow redshirting. The NCAA allows 5 years to play 4. A PL athlete doesn't need a PL waiver to continue his career at the grad school level (unless it's a PL grad school). Just needs a Dr's statement as to his year ending injury. Brockman didn't need a PL waiver to graduate and play his 4th year of eligibility for CSM. As to paying for the extra semester in the PL, LC and HC, at least, make the athlete drop out cause they're only going to pay for 8 semesters. This is my understanding.


That is why you need to understand the NCAA (medical redshirt )rules as they apply to non-PL schools. EX. freshman (hardship) in PL then plays as a sophomore and starts as junior and senior for a total of 3 years of eligibility. That kid can go to any D-1, D-2 or D-3 school to complete his fourth year of eligibility. It is a huge advantage in obtaining grad school admission and then taking a reduced academic load ( 6 credits minimum) fall semester and playing football.

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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:37 pm

RichHView user's profile






Joined: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 1211







At Lehigh athlete can drop out for a semester. Some do. This past year Jones.Menendez(WBB) and Alston (MBB) dropped out more for rehab necessity and mobility. LU not easy to navigate on crutches. Others Holba and Sedore did not.From what Im told some families pay for extra semester. The school will pick up the cost in most situations.
These are all undergrad situations tho. Under PL grad school is not an academic reason for a redshirt.

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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:40 pm

flyfisherView user's profile






Joined: 11 Dec 2012
Posts: 1306







RichH wrote:
At Lehigh athlete can drop out for a semester. Some do. This past year Jones.Menendez(WBB) and Alston (MBB) dropped out more for rehab necessity and mobility. LU not easy to navigate on crutches. Others Holba and Sedore did not.From what Im told some families pay for extra semester. The school will pick up the cost in most situations.
These are all undergrad situations tho. Under PL grad school is not an academic reason for a redshirt.


LC does not pay for that extra semester like LC. that is why some go ahead and graduate and play in grad school.

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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:09 pm

zenatorView user's profile






Joined: 17 Dec 2015
Posts: 78







flyfisher wrote:
RichH wrote:
At Lehigh athlete can drop out for a semester. Some do. This past year Jones.Menendez(WBB) and Alston (MBB) dropped out more for rehab necessity and mobility. LU not easy to navigate on crutches. Others Holba and Sedore did not.From what Im told some families pay for extra semester. The school will pick up the cost in most situations.
These are all undergrad situations tho. Under PL grad school is not an academic reason for a redshirt.


LC does not pay for that extra semester like LC. that is why some go ahead and graduate and play in grad school.


Agree. The hardship, medical waiver (properly understood) is a gift from the coaches to selected players to enable them to have a leg up on admission to a top graduate school.

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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:04 pm

PardsfriendView user's profile






Joined: 06 Oct 2014
Posts: 121







RichH wrote:
At Lehigh athlete can drop out for a semester. Some do. This past year Jones.Menendez(WBB) and Alston (MBB) dropped out more for rehab necessity and mobility. LU not easy to navigate on crutches. Others Holba and Sedore did not.From what Im told some families pay for extra semester. The school will pick up the cost in most situations.
These are all undergrad situations tho. Under PL grad school is not an academic reason for a redshirt.


 My kid played in high school with one of the top Lehigh lax midfielders from last season.  A scholarship player, he was injured his freshman season for LU, and didn't play that year.  He did play soph, jr, and senior years.  There was discussion that he'd seek a medical waiver to play his fourth year of eligibility.  A top flight student at LU,  he graduated with his class, and accepted a position working with an investment bank.

 He did not play in his fourth year of eligibility for Lehigh.  And my recollection is he isn't the only player to not return to play lacrosse in their final year of eligibility at Lehigh, (Rich correct me if I'm wrong).  But lax is different, because a fully funded program has 12.6 scholarships, unlike PL football programs, which may fund 60.

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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:09 pm

AndyView user's profile






Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 6155







zenator wrote:
flyfisher wrote:
RichH wrote:
At Lehigh athlete can drop out for a semester. Some do. This past year Jones.Menendez(WBB) and Alston (MBB) dropped out more for rehab necessity and mobility. LU not easy to navigate on crutches. Others Holba and Sedore did not.From what Im told some families pay for extra semester. The school will pick up the cost in most situations.
These are all undergrad situations tho. Under PL grad school is not an academic reason for a redshirt.


LC does not pay for that extra semester like LC. that is why some go ahead and graduate and play in grad school.


Agree. The hardship, medical waiver (properly understood) is a gift from the coaches to selected players to enable them to have a leg up on admission to a top graduate school.


Crazy. If a football player in the PL or any league gets hurt before 30% of his schedule is complete and a doctor says he can't compete, and he does not return, he earns a medical hardship from the NCAA. No gift from a coach. To play his 4th year of eligibility in the PL (Which would have him beyond the normal/expected 4 year track), he asks the PL to "waive" the league rule. If, say, Pujals could have returned to action but was held out by Gilmore so that he could compete next year, then I guess it's a gift, and a fraud.

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